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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Shoud Christians fight for abortion laws?

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Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1878


 Re:

Quote:

Sree, let me ask you a question: do you think pedophilia should be legal?



No, I don't believe it should be legal. In the same way, as I believe abortion should not be legal and also gay marriage. But I don't believe we as Christians should fight to make them illegal.


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Sreeram

 2021/1/26 20:32Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1878


 Re:

Quote:

To throw laws down for unconverted people to follow I fear is a waste of energy and time God has provided us with to win the lost for Christ and grow His body into the fullness of Christ. These laws will not get them one step closer to Christ and without Christ they will still go to the lake of fire!




I agree with you completely. I want to add that this restriction of unconverted people in the name of Biblical laws in the country, we are only turning people away from the Bible and God's love.

I cannot believe a woman who wants to abort her unplanned child will come to christ just because there is a law to prevent her from doing what she wanted. Instead, she will further move away from Christ in whose name such laws are established in this country.

She can come to Christ by Christians around her being a light to her though.


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Sreeram

 2021/1/26 20:37Profile
drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 747
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

I'm not trying to pick an argument with you.

But, and let me make sure I am not misunderstanding you, you don't believe we should oppose pedophilia being legalized?

Sree, that's absolutely bonkers.


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Nigel Holland

 2021/1/26 20:38Profile
drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 747
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

Quote:

I agree with you completely. I want to add that this restriction of unconverted people in the name of Biblical laws in the country, we are only turning people away from the Bible and God's love.




So we should show them how much we love them by letting them murder and abuse their children?


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Nigel Holland

 2021/1/26 20:41Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1508
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: brother Sree

Please correct me where I’m wrong as much of what you are saying finds concordance with my spirit 🙏🏻

If I’m understanding you correctly, you are saying that a/the Law cannot bring righteousness. Full stop

In this case you aren’t opposed to laws being enacted to protect the innocent, but you are saying as the body of Christ this isn’t our primary objective as it does not produce the fruit we are sent to harvest.
- Righteousness thru faith in Christ -

You are saying, yes vote your conscience for all good ! But don’t let that be where we (the body of Christ) overcommit to the cause of affecting the lower law only but primarily focus our efforts and intentions to affecting the world round about us thru allowing Gods influence (grace) to flow thru us to both believers and unbelievers alike. If we get too caught up in the civilian affairs of this world, we are distracted and more likely to have strife and factions due to our identifying ourselves with that cause which makes us less focused and less effective in the spiritual battle.

This is what I’ve gotten from you in this thread, feel free to correct or ignore 🙏🏻


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Fletcher

 2021/1/26 21:46Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 875


 Re:

The Gospel is central to everything we do. There is no doubt about that. We must be proclaiming the Gospel. People need to be saved. We must be faithful and diligent as individuals and as churches to make sure that is happening. However, to suggest that it is better that a mother murder her child than to allow that child to live and (potentially) be abused is absurd.

Think about it, with that logic, I could go to a child, who is being abused, even violently or horrifically and say "it would have been better if you had just been killed in the womb." What kind of convoluted statement is that? It isn't godly. It is evil. It denies the intrinsic value of the person and it most certainly is a de facto denial of the doctrine of the Imago Dei. You don't know what kind of life the non-aborted child is going to lead. You don't know how God plans to use them. And believing something like that will NOT get them saved nor motivate you to witness to them.

"But what prevents this unregenerated person who is forced to have an unwanted baby from abusing the baby after birth? The baby would have better died in the womb rather than being born and abused all their life." Show me this principle anywhere in Scripture.


"The proof that so many elderly posters in this forum who consider themselves as Strong Christians have divorced and failed to raise Godly offerings, shows their wasted personal testimony. But they will all fight against abortion as that is the only thing in their eyes that God hates!"

Who in the world are you talking about here? I hate divorce. I hate sexual immorality. I hate abortion. I hate all those sins. Every godly person I know hates them as well. Just who are you pointing the finger at here, sree? At the Church? You have no right to condemn the entire church in this matter, because your beliefs are not justified. I can hardly bring a logical argument against your case because you literally provide no evidence for the things you claim! This is insanity to abuse the bride of Jesus Christ like this.

You said: "I want to add that this restriction of unconverted people in the name of Biblical laws in the country, we are only turning people away from the Bible and God's love." Sounds a lot like "let us sin that good may come." You're walking a dangerous line here, my friend. Prove to me that this is the case. Show me how me voting for certain laws causes lost people to remain unconverted. The bible makes it clear that the law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. If there are no laws, if there are no morals, and everyone does what is right in their own eyes, then how would we ever be able to express the need for repentance from sin? Sure, we can show them the Bible, but if the government is doing what it was meant to do per Romans 13, then they will punish the wicked and reward the good. Without moral laws based upon the general revelation of God, the conscience that God has given us, and frankly the special revelation of God (the Bible), then people will be so immoral and wicked and ignorant of that, that I don't think we'd be able to convince them that what they are doing is evil.

 2021/1/26 22:20Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4547


 Re:

Q: Should Christians fight for abortion laws?

I do think that there is an error in the premise of the question itself. The idea of "fighting" is not exactly what Christians are trying to do when it comes to abortion. Rather, it is sharing a collective voice of the Christian community.

One error in the concept of government (and the role of Christians in it) is that the idea of "government" and "law" seems quite faceless and nameless. This might be due to the long history of monarchies, theocracies and dictatorships in human history.

The United States was very different during its founding. It created a government "of the people, by the people and for the people." In fact, the Preamble to the U.S. Constitution says the following:

Quote:

WE THE PEOPLE of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."



Thus, in the very foundational legal document of the United States, the purpose of the Constitution (the law of the land) is to "form a more perfect Union." This includes the following:

- Establish Justice
- Insure Domestic Tranquility
- Provide for the common defense
- Promote the general Welfare
- Secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity

To be clear: This is not really the Constitution OF the United States of America. Rather, it is the Constitution FOR the United States of America.

Obviously, you cannot mandate godliness. You cannot legislate salvation either. That isn't the purpose of the law (even the Law of Moses). The law establishes a set of statutes for righteousness.

Interestingly, the foundation of law in the United States itself is based upon the principle known as the "consent of the governed."

As such, the law exists in America because we (the people) consent to its existence. Even the Constitution is not a law that tells us what we can or cannot do. Rather, it exists to tell the American government what it cannot do -- because we have "natural rights."

John Locke was one of the English philosophers who influenced the founders of America. He pushed the idea of "tabula rasa" -- a clean slate. This was somewhat revolutionary at the time. He pointed out that there was no real "divine right of kings." Rather, babies were born into a sinful world yet with a clean slate -- not yet having committed a sin.

This became a foundation for America. With this in mind, a republic was born with a constitution that LIMITS government by remanding the rights to the people themselves.

The law exists because we agree upon it. If we want that law to change, then we can change it at local and state levels. If that law is deemed by the Supreme Court to be unconstitutional, then we still have an ability to amend the Constitution too.

Let's be clear: Abortion is murder. To believers, this is some evil "right" for a mother to solicit a medical practitioner to KILL her very own child. There is no "right" in the Constitution.

The Roe v. Wade decision insinuated that there was a "right of privacy" (so that a doctor could recommend an abortion). However, that law itself doesn't even state that abortion is actually a constitutional "right."

So, what should Christians do?

I believe that the idea that Christians should sit idly by -- doing, saying and influencing nothing -- while the world around us moves toward immorality is a bad idea.

We have an ability to influence. Obviously, our first method is by sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ to a lost and dying world. At the same time, we can share our voice. We have a voice -- via a vote -- in determining who governs us (temporarily as it might be) and, of course, the laws of this land.

Corrie ten Boom and her family defied the laws of the Nazi subjugators. She hid Jews in a hiding place in her home. She obtained extra rations too. Her family paid for their insurrection with their lives. Other Christians have done likewise.

Corrie ten Boom believed that God's law superseded the demands of the Nazis. She believed, as many Dutch resistance people did, that the people of their land had a natural right to determine the laws of the land. Thus, they weren't subjects to the Nazi laws.

The early church echoed this when they considered whether it was right to obey God or men. If we have an ability to influence the law -- as temporary citizens of a country -- then why not share our voice that reflects our heavenly citizenship?


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Christopher

 2021/1/27 0:30Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5709
NC, USA

 Re:

This is an area where I think science may ultimately have more of an effect than evangelical protest or voting.

At some point there will be undeniable evidence that a fetus is a human being. For example, we will be able to establish that an unborn child thinks, has emotion, etc. As cience progresses evidence will become undeniable.

It will get to the point that a pro abortion person would have to make the argument “we know a fetus is fully human but we want the right to kill it anyway.” I don’t see that going over too well.

After all, even sea turtle eggs are protected.


_________________
Todd

 2021/1/27 13:29Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1878


 Re: Fetcher

Quote:

You are saying, yes vote your conscience for all good ! But don’t let that be where we (the body of Christ) overcommit to the cause of affecting the lower law only but primarily focus our efforts and intentions to affecting the world round about us thru allowing Gods influence (grace) to flow thru us to both believers and unbelievers alike. If we get too caught up in the civilian affairs of this world, we are distracted and more likely to have strife and factions due to our identifying ourselves with that cause which makes us less focused and less effective in the spiritual battle.



Yes, that is my exact point. You have put it in better words.

I am NOT against people using their democratic rights to vote for a person who is prolife. But to set their heart on such a person and call such a person a messenger of God to save those unborn children, these things I am against.

Vote based on your conscience but do not set your hope on the laws. This is not God-ordained way to fight any evil.

Also, Churches and Christian leaders supporting political candidates because they are prolife is also pure evil. Let them vote for whom they want but not come public in their support. This to me is very similar to Muslim leaders enforcing Sheria law in Islamic countries by controlling the politics. I find no difference between Islam and Christianity in USA, both are in the same gutter of politics.


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Sreeram

 2021/1/27 14:18Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1878


 Re:

Quote:

Corrie ten Boom and her family defied the laws of the Nazi subjugators. She hid Jews in a hiding place in her home. She obtained extra rations too. Her family paid for their insurrection with their lives. Other Christians have done likewise.




The Tenboom family did not get involved in politics to fight Hitler and the killing of Jews.

The equivalent of what they did in this scenario could be to find mothers who wanted to abort their children and convincing them that you will raise the child as your own and raising them safely. There is nothing wrong in this.

I also know a very Godly elder brother in my native place who was a doctor in a government facility. He rejected to treat women who were getting abortions as it is against his faith. The government authorities thretened to fire him, he answered them that he is willing to lose his life anytime, so just losing a job will not make any difference!

Such testimonies are great, but this cheap testimony to fight for a politician just because he is willing to support prolife is what I am against.


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Sreeram

 2021/1/27 14:26Profile





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