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Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1883


 Shoud Christians fight for abortion laws?

I might be attacked for my views here but I am sharing my thought process here expecting to validate my thoughts against strong logical argument. Please do not get emotional about this subject as I believe abortion is very emotional.

I do not believe any country enforcing laws to restrict abortion is even feasible on this earth, due to the widespread liberal thinking. Even the USA cannot have federal or state laws to restrict abortion. I am a prolife as any Christian has to be, but that does not mean I can force or want to force any country to have pro-life laws. This means we are actually forcing people to follow prolife policies because our God wants us to be.

1. I believe God hates abortion but how does God want Christians to fight this evil? Is that by influencing politicians to make laws that will bind or force people to avoid abortion? I do not believe it is right. We all think of the millions of lives we save by forcing people to stop abortion. But what prevents this unregenerated person who is forced to have an unwanted baby from abusing the baby after birth? The baby would have better died in the womb rather than being born and abused all their life. In the USA recently a well-respected Baptist Pastor was abusing a CHild from birth and using her as a concubine. When the Church in the USA has degraded to this level where the Pastors are child molesters, what authority do we have to say others should not abort their CHildren because our God told so? Should we not be correcting our own mess first?

So my first point is, in a democratic country like USA it is impossible to have laws against social evils like Abortion or LGBTQ. Eventually, at some stage, the conservative Christians who believe that laws in the USA should be according to Bible will be numbered out. Democracy is a place where people decided how they should be treated and what is best for them. So it is always the majority that dictates.

2. What is God's ordained way for a Christian to fight any social evil? The answer is by being a witness.

Phil 2:14 Do everything without complaining or arguing, 15so that you may be blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and perverse generation, in which you shine as lights in the world

This is God's will for us to be a light in the perverse world. God does not want Christians to put their trust on politicians to be the light to enforce laws that fight this perverse generation. God's desire for the disciples of Christ to be a Light and thereby fight the spirit of perversion in this generation.

The Church has failed this purpose. How many Christians have raised their Children to be light in their generation? *** How many Christians even in this forum, can say that their Children were pure virgins when they got married? If the answer is no then what is the use of bringing laws in USA to fight abortion when your own children are having loose sex outside marriage thereby enocuraigng abortion? ***

Is abortion the only evil today that God hates? What about divorce? Does not our God say he hates divorce (Mal 2:16)? Still the divorce rate in Churches is as much as it is outside Churches? ***How many of these Church going christians who fight against abortion are willing to fight against laws to stop divorce? *** They are not because they themselves have failed marriages and are divorced.

I am not saying to fight against abortion laws a Christian should also be fighting against divorce laws or other social evils. I am saying do not give priority of one over the other. *** I am saying be a light first and live a clear and clean married life with your spouse and raise your Children first to be Godly in this generation *** These are the things that Church should first fight for than against abortion laws. I believe Church has failed here.

***The proof that so many elderly posters in this forum who consider themselves as Strong Christians have divorced and failed to raise Godly offerings, shows their wasted personal testimony. But they will all fight against abortion as that is the only thing in their eyes that God hates!***

I think there is a great deal of self-pleasing religious feel that such Christians get by fighting for prolife laws, hence they keep doing it.



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Sreeram

 2021/1/26 11:36Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1569
Scotland, UK

 Re: Shoud Christians fight for abortion laws?

Perhaps the most frequent and insistent attack from Satan to which we are vulnerable is accusation.

We have all heard Satan's lying, hateful voice in our consciences.

But now he seems to post in this forum.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2021/1/26 16:06Profile
havok20x
Member



Joined: 2008/9/14
Posts: 879


 Re: Shoud Christians fight for abortion laws?

A couple of things:

I understand your point. There are countries where voting is not allowed. Things like abortion are not fought at the national or state level, they are fought in homes and communities. But that isn't America. We CAN vote. We CAN legislatively duke it out at the state and national level. So why not? Does it hurt anything to push for the laws while we simultaneously preach the Gospel? No it does not. There are far too many brothers and sisters in Christ down through the ages who have affected incredibly positive changes in their societies just by loving and following Christ for me to say we should abandon that hope now.

That being said, there are a few things you have said that I believe need to be addressed.

1) "But what prevents this unregenerated person who is forced to have an unwanted baby from abusing the baby after birth?" You are mistaken here. General revelation and the conscience that God has given all men and women come into operation here. Just because an unregenerate mother considered abortion, but did not do it does not mean that child will have a terrible life. Common grace, motherly instincts, and morality revealed through the conscience can make even a wordly woman a motherly woman. On this same vein, to say that if a child is abused that they are useless in this world is a flaw to the greatest degree. By your logic, I should have been aborted along with my sisters for the horrible childhood we all had. Yet, 3 of us are believers and impact our communities well. 2 of us are missionaries and preach the Gospel across the globe.

2) To call abortion and homosexuality a "social evil" is a misnomer, designed to deflect the actual offense of te crime. Those things are evil. God hates those activites. So should you. However, by your logic, Shouldn't I simply avoid from stopping a man from raping a woman and instead just preach the Gospel to him while he's in the act? I think the Bible is clear on this. I am commanded to defend the innocent--and I will do that with every godly means in my considerably small power.

3). "The Church has failed." Please, sree, tell me by what means are you coming to this conclusion? Have the gates of hell been prevailing against the Church? You ask very pointed questions, but you yourself do not know the answer to them. How many are divorced on this forum? How many of the members children were virgins upon marriage? You don't know. You assume you know, but you don't. And to lay that kind of accusation against all of us with hasty generalizations is dangerous.



 2021/1/26 16:21Profile
drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 747
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

Yes, christians should absolutely fight for pro life laws. Just because a child might be abused after he or she is born is not an excuse to murder him or her in the womb.

I believe civil law should line up as closely as possible with God's law. Homosexuality, for example, should be illegal. I am not progressive or politically correct, nor will I ever be.

Did you know the founders of the gay rights movement supported pedophilia? And many people want what they call being a "Minor Attracted Person" (pedophile) to be legal. 100 years ago it was unthinkable that homosexuality would ever be seen as normal or acceptable behavior; look how far society has been degraded. Now someone is a "bigot" for not approving the sodomite lifestyle. Mark my words, as society gets worse we will see acceptance of abominations like pedophilia. It's a slippery slope.

The line is drawn in the sand. God's laws do not change, and christians should be unbending and unyielding to the world's demands.


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Nigel Holland

 2021/1/26 17:43Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1883


 Re:

Quote:

I understand your point. There are countries where voting is not allowed. Things like abortion are not fought at the national or state level, they are fought in homes and communities. But that isn't America. We CAN vote. We CAN legislatively duke it out at the state and national level. So why not? Does it hurt anything to push for the laws while we simultaneously preach the Gospel?



I appreciate your answer here. Yes, there is nothing wrong in voting for someone who supports prolife. My point is to put our hope on that as if it is the only hope. Voting for prolife is not even a God ordained way, it is a privilege that the USA gives to their citizen to choose the way the country should run. If the majority have chosen to run otherwise then there is nothing we can do about it.

For example, in 2016 the majority chose a prolife candidate. But now the elected person is not a prolife, which means the majority have chosen differently. But the question is should the Christians keep fighting for it? I don't believe that is right.

Quote:

On this same vein, to say that if a child is abused that they are useless in this world is a flaw to the greatest degree. By your logic, I should have been aborted along with my sisters for the horrible childhood we all had. Yet, 3 of us are believers and impact our communities well. 2 of us are missionaries and preach the Gospel across the globe.



No that is not my point. My point is the Child being abused all their life or the child dying by suffering continuous abuse. We have so many such cases. There are so many cases in which mothers have killed their children in a cruel way.

The point is, our hope should be to work on regenerating men through the Gospel not to chain them through state laws. These things are not a foolproof way of preserving or protecting the children.

Quote:

And to lay that kind of accusation against all of us with hasty generalizations is dangerous.



My point is not to accuse people, my point is are we using abortion laws as a replacement for Christian testimony. Because the Church in the USA has failed to be a pure testimony, which is evident by the number of divorces in the Churches in the USA, lack of young people gripped by the gospel, etc. The Christians in America are focusing on such laws to ease their conscience.

In a country with such a high number of CHurches and a Christian population, there is no need for laws to chain people from sin, rather the spread of the Gospel.


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Sreeram

 2021/1/26 18:04Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1895


 Re:

Hi Sree,
The overwhelming evidence is that the democrats helped by censorship from big tech and lies by main stream media used various methods to fraud and were beaten comfortably .

"For example, in 2016 the majority chose a prolife candidate. But now the elected person is not a prolife, which means the majority have chosen differently"

urs staff

 2021/1/26 18:18Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1883


 Re:

Quote:

Now someone is a "bigot" for not approving the sodomite lifestyle. Mark my words, as society gets worse we will see acceptance of abominations like pedophilia. It's a slippery slope.




I agree with this point. Yes as Bible says the generation will get more and more perverse. No stopping it.

The LGBTQ people search for acceptance in the society so that their sin can spread. As Christians we should never accept this practice as normal.

Quote:

I believe civil law should line up as closely as possible with God's law. Homosexuality, for example, should be illegal. I am not progressive or politically correct, nor will I ever be.




This is where I disagree with you. Can you give a Biblical support that we Christians should support the civil law to line up with God's law?

Here are my points against such views,
1. If we believe in a Christian majority nation, civil laws should be governed by Christian principles then we should also accept in Muslim nations, Sheria law should be used. But Sharia law is clearly anti-Christian and prevent the spread of the Gospel by persecuting Christians. How do we call that evil but call Christian laws in USA as good?

Other than our personal bias, there is no way we can give a clear answer to this question.

2. Because Christians are supporting civil laws based on Bible, Church has to mix with politics. A church should never have anything to do with politics. Jesus nor the apostles did anything with the politics of their time.


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Sreeram

 2021/1/26 18:41Profile
drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 747
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

Sree, let me ask you a question: do you think pedophilia should be legal?


_________________
Nigel Holland

 2021/1/26 19:13Profile
billy1980
Member



Joined: 2016/3/9
Posts: 200
Tennesse

 Re:

I fear We put the cart before the horse when we demand the unconverted follow God’s ways! They cannot, they are blinded by the spirit of this age. Without knowing Jesus intimately, they will not obey. The call from God’s messengers from Old and New Testament as I grow in knowledge of our Savior is repent and turn to, or turn back to God through Jesus Christ, and literally and spiritually follow Jesus.

The laws of Christ [agape love being the top priority, and flowing downward through the rest] should and were used within the church, to grow the church into the image of Christ through the empowering and continual direction of the Holy Spirit within each born again one. By the Word of God ministered through the various parts of the body of Christ, unto and with the rest of the growing body of Christ.

To throw laws down for unconverted people to follow I fear is a waste of energy and time God has provided us with to win the lost for Christ and grow His body into the fullness of Christ. These laws will not get them one step closer to Christ and without Christ they will still go to the lake of fire!

We each know Gods grace has been holding people back from more sever outreaches of sin for an extremely long time. We also know that, that grace is promised to diminish bit by bit. Until unrighteousness goes full swing.

Perhaps God has called some to put energy into politics, if so I fathom it is to win others to Jesus and thus them to become apart of Christ body to help us all grow into the Image Of Christ. It’s suppose to be all about Jesus. I have been given perhaps a cup full, probably less of God’s oceans of knowledge though, so at the end of the day may God be glorified and His will be done on earth as it already is in heaven. We will each answer to Him one day and all will be burnt but the gold, silver and precious stones from our lives.

May God open my eyes to my blind spots in His mercy, and the eyes of my brethren as well in His mercy. So we all can see clearer what He would have of us daily. May we each heed His voice and follow Him wherever He leads. Growing into the image of Christ. Even if like Paul and Peter it is to our physical deaths as His witnesses, or John where we continue to tell of the glorious truths of Christ till old age.






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William

 2021/1/26 20:02Profile
drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 747
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

Billy, I agree. Legislation will not make anyone holy; the world does not know what love is. They don't know Jesus.

Read Romans 13 though. The proper purpose of government is to punish evildoers. Sometimes they fall short of their God-appointed purpose, but that does not negate the scriptural mandate given to governments.

"A wise king scatters the wicked, and brings the threshing wheel over them." Proverbs 20:26


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Nigel Holland

 2021/1/26 20:27Profile





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