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Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1894


 Is predicting a political result a prophesy?

I have previously shared my point in other threads but I thought I will put a different perspective here. The first half of the post is the same point that I have posted in other threads, to explain my personal stand. The 2nd half is a new perspective.

I believe all gifts that were active during the apostle's time are still active now. So prophesy is still a valid gift. But the purpose of prophecy is not just any prediction, for example, predicting a political result cannot be considered a prophesy because it is not profitable to the building of the Church.

1 Cor 14:3 - But he who prophesies speaks to men for their edification, encouragement, and comfort.

New covenant Prophesy is not just predicting the future, it is to encourage, edify, and comfort the Church. There is no way anyone will be edified by predicting the next political winner! Let us go deeper about what Paul says on prophesy.

1 Cor 14: 23 -Therefore if the whole church gathers together and all the people speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are insane? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

If the pastor is predicting the next president in the Church in the name of Prophesy, now if an unbeliever comes, will the secrets of his hearts be disclosed? Will he fall on his face and say that God is in the midst? Can you answer this question honestly before God?

No one in the right conscience can answer that such predictions will make an unbeliever fall on his face and proclaim God is in their midst. So if the answer to the above question is NO then clearly such political predictions fail to meet the criteria that Paul is talking about prophecy in the CHurch.

So far I have put my scripture-based concern. The other concern I have is a general concern.

I do not see in the Bible God publicly predicting the ruler. For example when God showed Samuel that Saul will be the King, Samuel only secretly anointed him as King and waited till the lot fell on Saul publically. Samuel even though he knew the will of God, did not disclose it to the public, he waited for their accepted casting of a lot to complete. The same is the case with David and all the subsequent kings.

The point is God never allowed his prophets to influence the people by revealing His Will to them before the actual election of a leader. At least I am not aware of such instances. Now we can ignore this Biblical reasoning, it is not my point here.

Now today we hear that these self-proclaimed prophets are publically disclosing who will win the election. The problem with this is, they are influencing the result of the election by letting their audience know the result well ahead of time. A faithful innocent listener who due to Bible illiteracy believes that such predictions are from God will also vote in accordance with the prediction. In general, the listeners are getting brain washed. The person is using his position in the Church to brainwash his listeners and influence their votes. How is this right morally? It is a practice that God did not allow even in Old Covenant time.

Many years ago when Bibles were taught in schools, a Catholic bishop wanted to put an end to it. He influenced a politician to ban Bible in Schools, in return for the Catholic Church backing his election. He asked the Church members to vote for this guy as God wanted them to. The people voted accordingly, once the politician came to power, he banned the Bible in the schools of New York. Today we reap the consequences of it.

We all know that the action of this New York Catholic Bishop is wrong. But how different are the pastors of today predicting the election results and also influencing the votes of their listeners? I personally do not see a difference. One may say that the person backed by the Catholic Church is evil compared to the person predicted today by pastors, but this is an argument based on personal preferences. That cannot be considered as a valid argument.

In the Heathen nations, the religious leaders of that heathen religion, control the results of election by asking their followers to vote for a particular guy. Mostly the religious leaders are bribed for support. I see most Churches in the USA degrading to such heathen practices. I do not see any difference.



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Sreeram

 2021/1/12 18:26Profile
murrcolr
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Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1569
Scotland, UK

 Re: Is predicting a political result a prophesy?

Does the Bible mention Alexander the Great?

The name “Alexander” or “Alexander the Great,” referring to the Macedonian king, never appears in the Bible. However, the prophets Daniel and Zechariah wrote prophecies concerning Greece and Alexander’s Macedonian Empire.

Daniel also received a vision of the demise of the Medo-Persian Empire, which had, in 539 B.C., overtaken the Babylonian Kingdom. God specifically names the Medo-Persian and Greek empires in Daniel 8:20-21 and 10:20–11:4. The first half of chapter 8 is a highly symbolic passage about a ram and a goat. The ram had two horns, one longer than the other, representing the empire of the Medes and the Persians (Daniel 8:20), and “none could rescue from his power. He did as he pleased and became great” (Daniel 8:4).

Then a goat “came from the west” (Daniel 8:5) with a single horn between its eyes. The horn represents the king, Alexander. The goat killed the ram and “became very great, but at the height of his power his large horn was broken off” (Daniel 8:8) – a prediction of Alexander’s untimely death. In Daniel’s vision, the single horn is replaced with four new horns, which are “four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power” (Daniel 8:22). The four new kingdoms are mentioned again in Daniel 11:4, which says that “his [Alexander’s] empire will be broken up and parceled out toward the four winds of heaven. It will not go to his descendants, nor will it have the power he exercised.” These passages describe, two centuries in advance, precisely what happened to Alexander and his empire.


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Colin Murray

 2021/1/13 9:27Profile
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1712
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re: Is predicting a political result a prophesy?

Social media, in this respect, is like the conveyor belts at airports that allow you to speed by while others walk more slowly beside you toward your gate.

God may, indeed be speaking to His people, but some think they have a word and hop online to say what they think they've heard from God before God has even put His thoughts into people's hearts.

I don't want to condemn, so I won't. I will take the blame if I'm wrong, but I don't see where God is evident in any of these so-called "words of" whatever that come out online. I remain convinced that the gifts work properly, originally and -- at least initially in nearly every case -- locally within the assembled body for New Testament treatment, testing, examination and prayer.

There's a lot of recognition and pride in these proclamations. Pride that God would "show me" or "speak to me" about a particular event or outcome. It would take a lot of convincing to get me to think that little old lady prayer warriors are hearing from God what these styled prophets/teachers say they've heard. And, those feeble knees of many years of prayer aren't rushing to online platforms to get views or likes.


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Tim

 2021/1/13 9:39Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1897


 Re:

Hi
Just a comment on the question

Prophecying a Political result is a Prophesy.

Predicting a political result is a prediction which everybody in the betting market and polling market tried to do ,some successful and some not.

"Is predicting a political result a prophesy?"

Is prophecying a politcal result biblical or possble well thats a different question.

urs staff

 2021/1/13 12:19Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1894


 Re: Is predicting a political result a prophesy?

I dont see anyone answering these questions yet. Which is my 2 main points to reject such cheap predictions as Prophesy.

1. 1 Cor 14: 23 -Therefore if the whole church gathers together and all the people speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are insane? 24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

If the pastor is predicting the next president in the Church in the name of Prophesy, now if an unbeliever comes, will the secrets of his hearts be disclosed? Will he fall on his face and say that God is in the midst? Can you answer this question honestly before God? If the answer is NO then it means such predictions fail the standard Paul set in 1 Cor 14:24.

2. Now today we hear that these self-proclaimed prophets are publically disclosing who will win the election. The problem with this is, they are influencing the result of the election by letting their audience know the result well ahead of time. A faithful innocent listener who due to Bible illiteracy believes that such predictions are from God will also vote in accordance with the prediction. In general, the listeners are getting brain washed. The person is using his position in the Church to brainwash his listeners and influence their votes. How is this right morally? It is a practice that God did not allow even in Old Covenant time.



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Sreeram

 2021/1/15 13:28Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1531
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: Hi Sree

((((IF)))) Biden doesn’t get sworn in and DJT remains President .... will you do a mea culpa ?


_________________
Fletcher

 2021/1/15 13:57Profile
narrowpath
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Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1171
Germany NRW

 Re: Is predicting a political result a prophesy?

It is rare, but it happens even today.

There is the testimony of David Pawson, who was told by God to congratulate Margret Thatcher before being elected as prime minister while he was in Israel. Furthermore he received from God to encourage her to recover the faith of her father, who was a minister and to support Israel. He sent a telegram to her with the congratulation note and these words which arrived hours before her election was confirmed. He was the first one to congratulate her. Some of her first public statments as prime minister reflected these very words.

Lady Thatcher served for over 10 year as prime minister and introduced many reforms to boast the economy and disarm the powerful trade unions, who crippled country.

At the end of her reign, dissent grew against her from her own party and her people because of some social-political issues.

David Pawson send her another prophesy: God is finished with you because you disregared the poor. Soon aftwards she resigned.

David Pawson has a legacy as one of the greatest bible teachers after WW2.

What I am saying is, though there are many false prophets who want to claim a reputation for themselves, the gift of prophesy is still alive active.

 2021/1/15 14:37Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1569
Scotland, UK

 Re:

And I [Jehovah] will encamp about my house against the army, that none pass through or return; and no oppressor shall pass through them any more: for now have I seen with mine eyes” Zech. 9:8

The amazing fulfillment of this prophecy is described in detail by the Jewish historian Josephus (Antiquities XI, VIII). We might remark that while the narrative of Josephus is marred by some discrepancies, the basic account is as follows.

While Alexander had the city of Tyre under siege, he sent a requisition for supplies to several places, including Judea.

When that message was received by the chief magistrate at Jerusalem, a high priest named Jaddus, it was refused since the Jews professed allegiance only to Persia. Alexander was angered at the rebuff and determined, after he had taken Tyre, to destroy Jerusalem.

Knowing of the terror of this Greek, the Jews at Jerusalem began to tremble at the prospect of his wrath. According to Josephus, Jaddus caused sacrifices to be offered to God and prayer to be made for the protection of the holy city.

It is recorded that the Lord spoke to the high priest in a dream and told him to have no fear for Jerusalem would not be captured. In fact, the Jews were instructed to throw open the gates of the city and to go forth in a splendid procession to meet the approaching conqueror “without the dread of any ill consequences, which the providence of God would prevent.”

The priests, dressed in their ceremonial robes, led the citizens forth to greet Alexander. When the Greek general approached this devout multitude, rather than exhibiting his anger, he saluted the high priest and seemed to pay him religious homage.

When questioned regarding his strange conduct, he gave this explanation.

Alexander declared that before he had departed from Macedonia, he had experienced a dream in which this very high priest had appeared to him. In the dream, the king was told that his army would proceed under “Divine conduct,” and that through him, the Persians would be defeated.

Subsequently, Alexander entered the city of Jerusalem and joined with the priests in offering sacrifices in the temple.

It is said that the Jews showed him a copy of the scroll containing the writings of the prophet Daniel wherein it was “declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians” (Dan. 7:6; 8:3-8, 20-22; 11:3.)

Alexander was deeply impressed and concluded that he was the one of whom the prophet wrote.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1610-alexander-the-great-an-amazing-example-of-prophecy-and-providence


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Colin Murray

 2021/1/15 15:14Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1894


 Re:

Quote:

What I am saying is, though there are many false prophets who want to claim a reputation for themselves, the gift of prophesy is still alive active.



The question is not at all whether the grift of Prophesy is active. The question is, when a pastor is predicting the election result from the pulpit in the name of prophesy, is it scripturally correct based on 1 Cor 14?

Also is it morally correct for a Christian leader to predict such results to their people and there by sending an underlying message on whom to vote? Is this morally right?

Quote:

David Pawson has a legacy as one of the greatest bible teachers after WW2.




I have read his books and I am very impressed with his strong opposition to OSAS theory. I also believe he is a true Bible teacher in the line of Zac Poonen.

Now regarding your story on his political prediction, even if it is a true story, it still does not answer my question. David here only wrote to the candidate saying what God has shown him. He is not preaching this to his CHurch calling it a Prophesy. He is not publically making people know and thereby impacting the election result.

So David Pawson clearly has not violated 1 Cor 14:23 the way these modern day self proclaimed Prophets do.


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Sreeram

 2021/1/15 17:08Profile
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1569
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Quote: Now regarding your story on his political prediction, even if it is a true story.

David Pawson

The God Who Settles the Elections: Testimony about Prime Minister Thatcher

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTabdkiSNkk.

This second one David speaks about Prime Minister Thatcher and also the man who would be the next Prime Minister of Israel which he does start to tell people from the pulpit.

David Pawson

Is God interested in Elections? Does God vote?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYuOa_qpJ9E


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Colin Murray

 2021/1/16 15:30Profile





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