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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re:

I put in the part about his grandfather at the very last second almost as an afterthought so those on the forum might know a little bit about Fred. It was not mean to try and stack the deck in any way in mine or Fred's favor.

/Without the grandfather been mentioned their is no story here and the post lacks any authority. We are meant to listen to this man because he is Jewish and his grandfather died in Auchwitz./

If I hadn't included the part about his grandfather then the post of his comments would lack authority? In what way?

/If you want to argue that their is no rapture fine no problem but do it without getting someone elses name involved like Fred London./

Where was I arguing against a rapture? The post was meant to share comments of how a Jewish brother I know feels about certain attitudes he sees in some pre-trib believers.

/I thought that was a dishonest argument against a rapture because it didn't contain any scripture/

The same reply from me as just above. It wasn't about a rapture or the lack thereof. You missed Fred's point altogether. He was speaking of attitudes of some pre-trib advocates.

/I understand the post quite well which is to argue against a pre trib rapture but my objection is that the authority of the piece comes by mentioning that his grandfather died in Auchwitz,/

No, you don't understand the post at all. You see as me being dishonest and clandestinely arguing against a rapture by pulling someone else into it. You don't understand the post at all.

Fred's point was:

"There are some who teach, even to the point of being giddy, that Jesus will be hosting a “marriage supper” on the heels of a pre-tribulation rapture,” lasting the full seven years of the Seventieth Week of Daniel. That would mean that there would be great feasting and rejoicing in heaven right on through to the end of the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble.” Just ponder that for a moment..."

"There is a strange, and I will even go so far as to say, a perverse disconnect when believers can read Scriptures like Romans 9, 10 and 11 and can come up with the “blessed hope” as being that of an imminent rapture of the Church, with no thought of having any responsibility in Israel’s redemption, or as one man has expressed it, a mentality that says, “Jacob’s Trouble” is “Jacob’s Problem.”

"There is a serious disconnect here, and worse, your testimony to the Jew just got tossed into the refuse heap!” And, what a perverse disconnect from the reality of what the vast majority of the Church is subjected to on a daily basis throughout much of the world. We should be embarrassed."(END)

Fred's grievance is that many profess a love for Israel yet believe when Israel's worst time of trouble to ever befall the nation and world Jewry comes many of those same professors of their love believe they will be gone and in the process of being married to the Savior of Israel while the Jews will be left alone on earth to face the music by themselves during the final great tribulation. Fred made note that this type of attitude may cause your Christian witness to the Jew to get tossed into the refuse heap!”

That was Fred's point, which is far from me making a dishonest argument against the rapture.


_________________
David Winter

 2020/12/7 22:11Profile
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re:

/What you say is interesting but I just have a very hard time believing it can happen today, or in the near future./

That is understandable. I find it incredible also, but I am willing to let prophecy be my guide. The end of the age will be a very trying and dangerous time for Jews and Christian alike.

/Why will the entire world all of a sudden hate Jews so badly that it will be legal to hunt and kill them? Obviously there are Jews all over the world. What do you think they will do to provoke such a reaction?/

The singular fact that they are Jews will provoke the reaction. Why - because they are Jews. In the years preceding WWII and the holocaust they Jews in Europe were doing nothing to harm anyone. They were mainly just going about their business and contributing to the culture. The type of anti-semitism that suddenly raised its hand against them has always been so non rational and without reason or logic that it is my belief it has supernatural origins. It has never been natural and I believe will manifest itself strongly again before the end of this present evil age.

/And when you say “the wilderness” what do you mean? How can the church set up structures of protection in the middle of the desert that will not be located by technology?/

The wilderness doesn't have to be in the middle of a desert or similar place I don't think. If they are dispersed from the land of Israel again into the Gentile nations that would be their wilderness. The wilderness could be a hide out cellar or maybe a place of refuge prepared beforehand for the Jews because we know these things are going to happen. I'm thinking the church may increasingly be in a wilderness of sorts also as society and its increasing evil will likely soon begin to turn against the church with increasing stridency. We need to be able and prepared to witness and minister to increasingly fearful Gentiles also. Preparing for the Jew doesn't mean turning our back on Gentiles who need the Lord. All men need him of course.

/I understand the gist of what your argument is, I just have a very hard time understanding the practicality of it. 99.9% of the evangelical churches have no idea what you are talking about./

Maybe many, but I wouldn't say 99.9%. Like I said, it's my opinion that replacement theology along with non literal interpretation of prophecy have taken their toll. The biblical Hebrew view needs to be restored.

Thanks bro for listening. Blessings.


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David Winter

 2020/12/7 22:37Profile
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2753


 Re: Exploring Israel's Deliverance Through Zion - Art Katz

“And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob; for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins” (Rom. 11:26-27).

I have long been intrigued by the phrase, “There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer.” Clearly Israel’s deliverance is a final, eschatological, closure event. But how is it to be effected? There is something in the heart-cry of David in v.7 of Psalm 14, “O that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion!” that suggests something more than the physical locus of the Returning Lord’s capitol and Kingdom, but something of the character of the King and His Kingdom obtained finally in the Church that is the key to Israel’s deliverance!

This would be, it seems to me, every bit in keeping with the release that comes to the physical creation from the bondage of corruption that “waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God” (Rom. 8:19f.). Acts 3:21 is another indication that God has bound Himself with regard to the release of His Coming and His Kingdom, and that there needs to be the fulfillment of certain conditions, “the restoration of all things which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the age began.” As I have tried to indicate in other papers, notably the article on Ez.37, the Church is the principal agent in that restoration—but the Church of an ultimate kind! By that I mean, a corporate people brought to full prophetic and apostolic maturity sharing the character of God.

In a word, the King of glory, the Lord of Hosts is “at the gates” (Psalm 24:7), but as Karl Barth elaborates, “A bolt is fixed in place, it requires certain hands, different hands from our own, to open. ‘Clean hands’ are required for it…men with other hearts than our own…He who has ‘a pure heart,’ say the words of the Psalm, can ‘ascend into the hill of the Lord’ [i.e. Mt. Zion]…men who have ‘not lifted up their souls to falsehood”. (From "Come Holy Spirit," Wm. Eerdmans Co., Grand Rapids, Mi., 1978. p.6).

Is this not a description of “sons”? Can those who are able to approach that mount be of a character and kind that is different or other than that of Zion itself? For “Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord, or who shall stand in His holy place? “Clean, guiltless hands open the bolt that closes the entrance to the redeeming and freeing things [The salvation for all who are Israel and the turning away of ungodliness from Jacob] which God has to say to us”(ibid., p.6). Is it not to be expected that the Church of the Last Days that can “provoke them to jealousy” (Rom. 11:11) is exactly that ‘Zion,’ and provokes Israel, long-chafed by the historical Church’s insensitivities and brutalities?

How compatible is such a view with the testimony of the prophetic Scriptures that speak of the method that God employs in effecting Israel’s final redemption out of Last Days’ extremity?

“Therefore, behold, I will allure [woo] her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak tenderly unto her. And I will give her vineyards there, and the Valley of Achor for a door of hope” (Hosea 2:14-15). Parentheses and emphasis mine.

“And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead [entreat] with you face to face” (Ez. 20:35).

That latter phrase I have always interpreted as revealing the character of God (His unconditional love and sacrificial mercies) in the face (i.e., the visibly demonstrated, consistent and unaffected demeanor) of His people despite the most excruciating demands of a frustrated, panic-ridden Jewry.

How much then, in light of the mandate which is exclusively ours and one that cannot be fulfilled on any grounds other than our total sanctification, should we welcome the most stringent dealings of God in preparation thereof? How much will we welcome the intensive conditions of true church life whereby they might be obtained? Should we not welcome the necessary judgments of God of hidden things as being the very grace of God? If we are to be the agents for opening the gates that the King of glory be come in, “We must divorce ourselves from the old existence, we must become ashamed of our imprisonment” (Barth, p.7), for how can the Church be this for Israel when it is not yet this for itself? What a new, deep seeking of God this will require. But then “Who will ascend into the hill of the Lord?…The generation of them that seek after Him, that seek thy face [the revelation of God in His character as He in fact is and not as we thought Him to be], God of Jacob.”

(Art Katz)


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David Winter

 2020/12/7 22:47Profile
brotherAbey
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Joined: 2017/2/26
Posts: 15
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 Re: Revival Prayer

Dear brother,

I just want to inform you of prayer time focused on Revival that takes place every Monday evening via teleconference. I had a similar burden and brother Greg Gordon informed me of it. It is led by a dear brother from Canada named Edgar Reich. My wife and I have been involved for the last two years and have never personally met any of the other brothers and sisters. The primary burden is for North America but we pray as the Spirit leads.


_________________
Abey

 2020/12/7 23:27Profile
BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 1268
Australia

 Re:


1 Cor. 15:22 –
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Comment:
And so ALL men, ALL Jews and ALL Gentiles, will be saved.


THE FINAL, CLOSURE EVENT:

1 Cor. 15:23-28 –
But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
THEN COMES THE END, when He hands over the kingdom to our God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET.
But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is clear that this excludes the Father who put all things in subjection to Him.
When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.


Quote:
THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL



_________________
Jade

 2020/12/8 5:48Profile
Mustacheglasses
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Joined: 2016/4/25
Posts: 17
New Jersey, USA

 Re: Prayer Meeting

Brother Abey, can you provide a link?


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Joseph Martin Lowsky

 2020/12/8 10:18Profile
dolfan
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Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1727
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

The disagreement on pre/post-trib/no-trib --- or pan-trib ("I ain't worried about it, it'll all pan out.") --- will resolve itself. God is doing what He said He will do in the Earth.

If you are aloof from studies of the time of the end, my biggest concern is that you may be deceived easily in the months to come. Without me making a case that anyone who is aloof is in danger (and thereby starting an argument that will be fruitless), may I gently ask this? Pray and read. Read the prophets, psalms and the New Testament and ask the Holy Spirit to teach you whatever He will -- and be willing to be changed. If you're right to be aloof, He'll still shape you toward Christ. You've only to gain and not to lose. I believe He'll finish what He started in you and that He will move the earnest heart toward greater understanding of what He's is doing (whatever that may be).

If you're a preterist and/or amillenialist, my biggest concern is the same concern I have for post-trib/pre-wrath, millenialist believers like myself: Pride. In your case, I pray that pride will not keep you immovable if what God is doing in the Earth is, in fact, what post-trib/pre-wrath believers think we understand Him to be doing. Let's agree to love one another and remain committed to each other. I do think that, in the months ahead, that love will be indispensible, empowering and a condemning witness to counter the confusion and deception of the times. If we're right and you're wrong, our own pride can be a divider at a time when truly washing one another's feet is a most needed aspect of our nexus in Christ as opposed to patting ourselves on the back. We are going to need each other. If you're right and we're wrong, we need each other -- how will we come to knowledge of the truth (which we wholeheartedly want) if we have no one to turn to?

If you're a pre-tribber, my biggest concern for you is disillusionment and rejection of your Savior when time reveals your error. The 70th Week is coming swiftly. You'll be here for it (at least part of it depending on your survival). My concern is that you don't miss where you are in time and become so disillusioned and disappointed that you give up the faith. And, if you will, please (as I plead with the end-times-aloof), pray and read. And, as I plead with preterist/amils and other post-trib/pre-wrath believers, let's commit to love one another anyway.

We are, to one another, where we are, the greatest assets on Earth. It is my own view that the global wave against the assembling together of ourselves has now crashed into the full of North America. Let us practice toward each other what our brothers and sisters abroad already know -- we NEED one another.








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Tim

 2020/12/8 12:25Profile
BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 1268
Australia

 Re:


Quote:
The 70th Week is coming swiftly.



This is debatable. I hold the view with many others that the 70th week is already past.


This is clear:

2 Thess. 2:1,3-4 –
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him……………Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

The church, the body of Christ, is the temple of God (Eph.2:19-22, 1 Pet. 2:4-5).

There is NO scripture connecting 2 Thess. 2:1, 3-4 with the 70th week.


If God is for us, who is against us? We overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us, and nothing will be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom. 8:31-39).

“Stand firm” – 2 Thess. 2:15.


Quote:
And, as I plead with preterist/amils and other post-trib/pre-wrath believers, let's commit to love one another anyway.



The enemy divides and conquers. We unite to fight THE GOOD FIGHT OF FAITH (1 Tim. 6:12).


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Jade

 2020/12/8 22:51Profile
deogloria
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Joined: 2020/2/12
Posts: 393


 Re:

Such discussions about -ism and -ology etc. don't promote Biblical Revival and unity. Therefore it should be clear that they are not helpful.

Many Believers have been in such Prison Camps and Gulags etc.Many of those who survived were praising God and shared their testimony with the world. That is powerful !

Luke wrote: "Around midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the other prisoners were listening..."

Comment from Jade:
"And so ALL men, ALL Jews and ALL Gentiles, will be saved."
Correct ! - we have "one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.… (Eph 4:5,6)

savannah wrote:
And now I sing a brand new song,
“Amazing grace” all day long,
Christ Jesus paid the debt,
That I could never pay.
Have some of us forgotten that - or never experienced it ?

Joseph: I can hear what you are saying, glad you tried to remind us what really matters:
"I just thought the focus here was supposed to be prayer and revival " Amen !

 2020/12/8 23:49Profile
billy1980
Member



Joined: 2016/3/9
Posts: 312
Tennesse-

 Re:

"Let us practice toward each other what our brothers and sisters abroad already know -- we NEED one another." This mentality in Christ is what we need!

The world will know us as Christ's disciples by our endtime views? By our belief [concerning] eternal security? By our believing we have 100% right doctrine? By a certain denomination we are apart of? By reading our Bibles hundreds of times? By a title we have been given? By our gifting within Christ body? By our boldness?

No, they will know we are Christ's by our love for one another. Love fulfills the law. Love covers a multitude of sins. Agape love brought through Christ, and given through His Spirit is a must for us no matter what happens next.


_________________
Billy Witt

 2020/12/9 0:10Profile





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