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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1757


The left are anti semitic just look at the British Labour Party whose leader was suspended over the issue.
The Labour Party also has Jewish members.
The distinction I think is between old school socialist left and the liberal left.Many Jews believe in socialism,look at the make up of Israeli Politics.
The liberals are not alone anti semetic they are anti religion.They hate Israel so much because they are a religous state .They only support Islamic countries because they strike against western demorcracy which they hate as it stands in the way of a liberal authoritarian utopia.
If you ask a true liberal they will say that the liberal socialist left are not liberal at and they hijacked the term.
Just like their is huge confusion with some Christians who tought it actually was a good thing to vote for Biden ,their is a huge confusion with some Jewish voters who voted Biden but dont understand the hidden agenda ,urs staff

 2020/12/5 14:08Profile

Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2091

 Re: proper eschatological perspective

"Replacement theology and its Preteristic offshoot have done as much to cloud the church's proper eschatological perspective as anything else...We still owe the Jews a debt."

Preoccupation with, and a schewed idea of, who are the chosen race, 'has done as much to cloud the church's proper eschatological perspective as anything else'.

I'll keep singing;

I had a debt I could not pay,
He paid the debt He did not owe,
I needed someone,
To wash my sins away.
And now I sing a brand new song,
“Amazing grace” all day long,
Christ Jesus paid the debt,
That I could never pay.

Let there be no racism, partiality, or favoritism among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people.

John 1:11-13 says,

He came to his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them he gave power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 2020/12/5 16:29Profile

Joined: 2017/2/26
Posts: 10
Austin, TX

 Re: The Church and Israel

Thank you Docs for posting. There is such a precision in the title and sentiment of the article. The God of us Christians is known as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The entire divine revelation from Genesis to Revelation was written by Jews. I personally agree with the view that Luke also was a Jew. Our Lord and Savior (the Messiah of Israel) is a Jew. The twelve disciples of our Lord were Jews. I'm reminded of the great quote "The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church". Church history tells us that everyone of the disciples was put to death for their testimony of Jesus. The greatest apostle to the Gentiles, who explicitly told us in Romans 11:25-29 that after the fulness of the Gentiles be come in "all Israel shall be saved in accordance with His Covenant with Israel) was a Jew, The first New Testament Churches were composed primarily of Jews. The eternal destination of all believers is a city called the New Jerusalem. And yet somehow, there is a sizeable contingent of Christians who are entirely apathetic to Israel/ The Jews welfare is truly astounding. I definitely give a hearty amen to what the brother shared about us owing a debt of gratitude. The greatest way that we can repay that debt is not just with some kind of sentimentality about the plight of the Jewish people or a knee-jerk approval of the political/militaristic actions of the state of Israel, but to declare to them the glorious Gospel there Messiah has come and his name is Jesus.

Just today I was thinking about our dear brother Paul. It was he who wrote in his letter to the Philippians that for him to live was Christ. In Galatians he declared, I am crucified with Christ and it is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me, and the life which he now lived in the flesh he lived in the faith of the Son of God. Paul's estimation of the Lord Jesus Christ quite literally reached the third heavens and his personal devotion to the Lord Jesus Christ is without question. In Acts 21, Luke records how all those who were present at the house of Philip the evangelist pleaded with Paul to not go Jerusalem where Agabus, prophesied by the Holy Spirit that Paul would be captured and delivered by the Gentiles. How did Paul respond? "What do you mean to weep and to break mine heart? For I am ready not be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem FOR THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS. I don't think that there is a serious Christian that would question the depth of Paul's walk in the Spirit. He did have a brief slip up in Acts 23 when he in haste spoke a harsh word to the Ananias the High Priest. But even then, it was out of ignorance and he repented. According to his own words, he did not know it was the High Priest and he immediately recalled and quoted the scripture that forbids speaking evil of the ruler of the people. All of this is to say that if there was ever a man that walked in the spirit, Paul was such a one.

Why then would there be any room to interpret Paul's great heaviness and continual sorrow of heart, even going so far as saying that he could wish himself accursed from Christ for his brethren, his kinsmen according to the flesh to be some mere sentimentality or nationalistic/ethnic pride. As most who know the Scriptures are aware, this is not the first time that a supremely Godly man expressed such feeling. Moses did the same in the Old Testament. After the children of Israel had sinned against God by building and then worshipping the golden calf, God was about to do away with them entirely until Moses pleaded on their behalf. "If Thou wilt forgive their sin-; and if not, blot me, I pray Thee, out of Thy book which Thou has written." Could both Moses and Paul both have "missed it" on this point or did they know something deeper about God and were pleading on that ground. I think it's the latter. These men knew God. They knew that He was a God of covenant and that he had made a covenant with Abraham and his descendants that HE was not going to turn from. They understood that His relationship with them as that of a Father to his son. Hosea 11:1 says, "When Israel was a child then, I loved him and called My son out of Egypt." A few verses later, The Lord God declares, (7) And My People are bent to backsliding from Me.: though they called them to the Most High, none at all would exalt Him. Yet in spite of such rebellion, He says, (8)How shall I give thee up Ephraim? how shall I deliver thee Israel? how shall I make thee as Admah? how shall I set thee as Zeboim? Mine heart is turned within Me, My repentings are kindled together. (9) I will not execute the fierceness of Mine anger, I will not return to destory Ephraim.. I don't think that it is an overstatement to say that the knowledge of God's steadfast love for us New Testament believers is demonstrated first in God's steadfast love for Israel. If he ceases to love Israel, then he may very well cease to love me, but no one walking away from reading the Old Testament Scriptures and a true understanding of the New Testament can walk away with any question as to God's enduring love for Israel and by extension us who have put our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

So, getting back to the subject at hand which pertains to the church's relationship with Israel (i.e. the Jewish people) in the last days - how in light of all that the Jews have done for us Gentiles, how can we not be burdened for their welfare and salvation?


 2020/12/5 22:11Profile

Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 764



……in light of all that the Jews have done for us Gentiles……

Gentiles are saved by grace through faith and not by any works of the Jews.

Eph. 2:8-9 –
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

We boast in God alone.

1 Cor. 1:30-31 –
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

Ps. 115:1 –
Not to us, O LORD, not to us,
But to Your name give glory
Because of Your lovingkindness, because of Your truth.

No distinction between Jews and Gentiles:

Rom. 3:9-10, 23 –
What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE………for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Rom. 10:12-13 –
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Gal. 3:28-29 –
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Rom. 11:34-35 –
For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

For from Him and through Him and to Him ARE ALL THINGS. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.



 2020/12/6 11:50Profile

Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1757


Hi Branchvine,
Every Christian whether they are Jew or Gentile is saved by by Grace through faith and not by any works
I think this is not the question ,I guess what Abby is saying is we owe alot to early Christians and old Testament saints that came before us ,we are not saved by them but we can still owe a debt of gratitude.This gratitude does not answer the question on Gods relationship with the Jews since the first century.
It clear that God has further dealings with the Jews and its obvious that once Israel was reformed in 1948 that the clock is ticking towards that day of reckoning.Its also clear that God judges nations and people groups.
Anyone in my opinion who says that Israel is finished with is in deniel and the notion that Israels current miracle existance is an accident or on a par with other nations existance is in super deniel ,urs staff

Gentiles are saved by grace through faith and not by any works of the Jews.

 2020/12/6 12:37Profile

Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2281


/David- I know the OP is not about 70 AD (at least I did not intend it to turn it into that) but you wrote the following which seems to be directed at me:

In my opinion, as you hold to the view of a personal Antichrist as being somewhat absurd, I find it equally absurd to maintain the view that the second physical coming Christ was asked about happened in 70 AD./

I have never said such a thing nor do I believe that now. I do, however, believe that Jesus did come in judgment against Israel in 70 AD (it’s obvious) but I don’t believe that was a “second coming.”/

If that is not your position, then I was wrong in stating so. I honestly thought that was how you viewed this, but if not, let me be the first to openly apolologize. That's not a small mistake and therefore bears correcting which I receive and acknowledge. My bad and my apologies.

/That aside, I asked how you think this worldwide persecution against the Jews will come to be and how the Church is expected to help. I have a hard time envisioning it. If there is some sort of “Nazi” worldwide sentiment and enforcement how can millions of Jews hide in the wilderness, or in churches for that matter?/

In the wilderness, they will find places of refuge already prepared I hope. "Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast tio the earth, hre persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent (Rev 12:13-14).

Perhaps the church will have already acted because of its foreknowledge that this event was coming and in anticipation had already prepared places of nourishment and safety for even these still unsaved Jews.

“And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples(Gentiles), and there I will plead my cause with you face to face.” (Ezekiel 20:35).

Maybe the face of God they will see in the wilderness of the nations in a future dispersion and exile will be that of a Gentile willing to lay down their life for them and stand with them during the most intense hour their nation has ever known. No wagging the finger In their face by the Gentiles gloating over their misfortune. But a willing SERVANTHOOD will to embrace them in their time of extreme adversity. Being prepared would include being willing to show them from their own scriptures what has happened to them and why it has happened, all with the goal of pointing them to Christ who is the only place of safety.

The wrath of the man of sin/ Antichrist will be of the same mold as that of the Nazis except set on fire by hell ten times more. Hiding Jews during this time will be a Corrie ten Boom type of effort on a much grander scale.

/I understand your basic premise- that the Church must assist Jewish refugees, but it is not clear how/why they will become refugees. Israel will spark a global nuclear conflagration before it allows that to happen./

The HOW is that they will become refugees because the man of sin will loose his hand on this physical seed of Abraham (I didn't say spiritual seed) and make a final effort to eliminate them. “Therefore when you when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those in Judea FLEE to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your FLIGHT not be in the winter or on the sabbath. For THEN (at that time) there will be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as not has been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be again. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved” (Matthew 24:15-22). What will the church be doing during this time?

The Jews will be forced to flee and it will be the greateset time of tribulationthis race and nation has ever seen (see Daniel 12:1). The latter day invasions of the land Ezekiel wrote of will begin also.

The WHY is if they are not in the new covenant in Christ, they are still under the curses of the old covenant.

“And evil will befall you in the latter days, because you will do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands” (Moses – Deut 31:29).

“After all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me, then I also will walk contrary to you in fury; and I,even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins” (Lev 26:27-28).

As great as the modern state is, it has honored God only in lip service and has produced a secular humanistic stater through the power of the flesh. This work of their hands does appear in the Lord's eyes as it may appear to otters and many in the church. It still has rebellion and the pride of its power as its backbone.

33 will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you; your land shall be desolate and your cities waste. 34 Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies’ land; then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths. 35 As long as it lies desolate it shall rest—for the time it did not rest on your sabbaths when you dwelt in it. 36 And as for those of you who are left, I will send faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; the sound of a shaken leaf shall cause them to flee; they shall flee as though fleeing from a sword, and they shall fall when no one pursues. 37 They shall stumble over one another, as it were before a sword, when no one pursues; and you shall have no power to stand before your enemies. 38  You shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up. 39  And those of you who are left shall waste away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands; also in their fathers’ iniquities, which are with them, they shall waste away. (Lev 26:33-39).

63 And it shall be, that just as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing; and you shall be plucked from off the land which you go to possess.
64  “Then the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known—wood and stone. 65And among those nations you shall find no rest, nor shall the sole of your foot have a resting place; but there the Lord will give you a trembling heart, failing eyes, and anguish of soul. 66 Your life shall hang in doubt before you; you shall fear day and night, and have no assurance of life. 67 In the morning you shall say, ‘Oh, that it were evening!’ And at evening you shall say, ‘Oh, that it were morning!’ because of the fear which terrifies your heart, and because of the sight which your eyes see. (Deut 28:64-67)

Exile among the nations and finding no rest among those nations and fear of heart while among the nations. This traceable Jewish experience in history has borne out that God still deals with them within the perimeters of covenant. If exile happens again, can the church have been forged and become large enough in heart to receive these again wandering Jews (finding no rest for the sole of their foot) and be a source of nourishment and instruction to the while pointing them to Christ? The very presence of a nurturing church during this time may go a good ways toward softening their hearts to Christ. As of now, many Jews still rightfully see the church as one of their chief persecutors over history's course. We sure have not provoked them to jealousy. In the natural, who deserves less compassion than Israel? Yet, if I CAN LOVE ISRAEL EVEN IN THEIR PRODIGAL UNBELIEF, I can become capable of loving every man in their unbelief. Loving Israel is a on the job object lesson in loving the unlovely and non deserving which is at the heart of the gospel.

/Israel will spark a global nuclear conflagration before it allows that to happen./

They will have been deceived and will be caught totally unawares. When they cry peace and safety then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION will come upon them. “Because you have said, 'We have made a covenant with death, and with Sheol we are in agreement, when the overflowing scourge passes through, it will not come to us, for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood we have hidden ourselves” (Isaiah 28:15).Their reliance on a nuclear arsenal will be a part of the very thing God desires to break them from. If they believe their safety lies in their arsenals then they still rely on the arm of the flesh - “I will break the pride of your power” (Lev 26:19; see also Deut 32:36; Daniel 12:7). God will break the pride of their power in every way so when they find themselves dispersed again and devoid of anything to save them but the Lord, then He will have pity on them once again once their power is gone.

“Yet for all that,, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them; Bot for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought oput of ther land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I will be their God; I am the LORD” (Lev 26:44-45).

Christ will eventually return to Israel and then the true Jewish return from the nations as spoken by the prophets will begin as the nation will have been borne again in one day at the revelation of Christ as they will have seen Him for Who He really is.

Meanwhile, I believe the church should start preparing for a bewildered and likely panicked Jew suddenly dispersed again. Jews in the nations are destined to become the hunted Jews once again. I pray the church will not thumb their noses at them as in times past and be complicit in their demise. Much is at stake, not only the coming physical survival of Jewry but also their spiritual survival and welfare in Christ.

David Winter

 2020/12/6 17:33Profile

Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5678


David- thanks for your response.

I wanted to make sure you saw my Edit in my post that you quoted. You are correct that I do not believe in a literal future person who will be the Antichrist but I do not believe the second coming was in 70 AD.

What you say is interesting but I just have a very hard time believing it can happen today, or in the near future.

Why will the entire world all of a sudden hate Jews so badly that it will be legal to hunt and kill them? Obviously there are Jews all over the world. What do you think they will do to provoke such a reaction?

And when you say “the wilderness” what do you mean? How can the church set up structures of protection in the middle of the desert that will not be located by technology?

I understand the gist of what your argument is, I just have a very hard time understanding the practicality of it. 99.9% of the evangelical churches have no idea what you are talking about.


 2020/12/6 18:15Profile

Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1757


I think if you look at time times and half a time in the bible it shows a a pattern that is repeated at the time of the end.
When 3 and half years is mentioned in the bible in whatever form 42 months or time and times we see that its a specific period of time when Elijah appears.
3 1/2 years + Elijah + An Anti Christ Figure Ahab
3 1/2 years + John The Baptist + An Anti Christ figure Herod
3 1/2 years + The Two Witnesses + The Ulitimate Anti Christ

Elijah in whatever form has many roles to fulfill,The important ones are
1 He battles against Jezabel
2 He Preaches or Ministers to the Anti Christ
3 He makes way or gets ready for the Lord
4 He gets the Bride of Christ ready (friend of the bridegroom)
5 He begins and ends the 3 1/2 years

Elijah comes before the great and terrible day of the Lord ,the cross was the great day and the end is the terrible day.
Their is no end without a battle with Jezebel ,Preaching against the Anti Christ and the Bride being made ready by the friend of the groom Elijah,
urs staff

 2020/12/6 18:48Profile

Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2091

 Re: great and terrible not separate events

staff says,

"Elijah comes before the great and terrible day of the Lord ,the cross was the great day and the end is the terrible day."

Not so. The great and terrible Day of the Lord speaks of a singular Day. These two words, great and terrible, are used to describe the Day. Do not make them two separate events, because they are not.

Here's where this prophecy is found;

“Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD." Malachi 4:5

I will send; though the spirit of prophecy cease for four hundred years, yet at the expiring of those years you shall have one sent, as great as Elijah, and therefore he is now called Elijah, that shall prepare Messiah’s way.

Elijah; not the same in person who reproved idolatrous Israel, who destroyed Baal, though both Jews and many Christians would gladly have it so, in favour of some errors they have adopted and would maintain. But this person here called Elijah was John Baptist, as is clear from Matthew 17:12,13.

Elias is come, and they have done to him whatsoever they listed. Then the disciples understood that he spake of John the Baptist. And he was that Elias, if they would receive him, Matthew 11:14. Elias, was to come when Malachi lived; Elias was come, and the Jews had ill treated him, and Herod had beheaded him, when Christ here lived; this Elijah then was John the Baptist, who came.

in the spirit and power of Elias, Luke 1:17, and therefore bears his name in this prophecy.

The prophet; who foretold Christ the true Messiah’s sudden manifestation, who indeed was already among them, but had not yet discovered himself; on whom he persuades the Jews to believe, and receive his person and his law, Luke 1:15-17 Mark 1:7,8; who was greater than a prophet, Matthew 11:9; nor doth John’s denying himself to be a prophet, John 1:21, in their sense contradict this.

Before; that is, immediately before; so he was born six months before Christ, and began his preaching but few years before Christ began to exercise his public office.

Great: this day was great indeed, yet it is not the day of the last and great judgment, though the Jews perversely affirm it to evade the acknowledgment of Messiah’s being already come. But this day of Messiah was great for the alterations he was to make in worship and church affairs, taking down the Mosaic ceremonies and enlarging the church; great for the miracles he wrought, and empowered others to do; great for the reconciliation between God and man, for the conquering of Satan, and casting him out of his throne. It was great too against the Jews his obstinate enemies.

Dreadful: it was a time of vengeance executed upon a people whose sins were full ripe; and such sufferings fell on the Jews at that time, as may very well be an emblem of the day of judgment, and which may be remotely meant hereby. But the first, the literal and plain, meaning of the words refer to the times of vengeance upon the Jews from either the birth, or first preaching, or death of Christ to the final desolation of the city and temple, and irrecoverable overthrow of their government, of which Christ speaks at large, Mt 24 Mr 13; which places point out first the sad and dismal miseries of the Jews, and next, by accommodation, the end of the world and last judgment. Such a description of this day, Joel 2:31, by St. Peter interpreted and applied to this day of Christ, Acts 2:20, more fully clears this. The Lord; Jesus Christ, preaching to the Jews, calling them to repentance, reproving their sins, encouraging their compliance, threatening their impenitence, and labouring to gather the children of Jerusalem together under his wings, but they would not, Matthew 23:34-39; and therefore at last destroying by the Romans these obstinate and incorrigible sinners. (Matthew Poole)

 2020/12/6 21:43Profile

Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1757


Hi Savannah
I have to repectfully say what your saying is accurate to a point but misses the big picture of Elijah.
The process of looking at that scripture is called telescoping where their is a gap in the time as if you looked at it from a distance.Also it is clear that the day of the lord has mulitiple applications and fulfillments.

Elijah was Elijah
John was Elijah
The Two Witnesses are Elijah
And through their ministry the end time Church are Elijah or have the Spirit of Elijah.

I noticed that you didnt comment on the pattern of Elijah which is only clear when it is pointed out,
Only by understanding that MT Carmel and Pentecost are in effect the same thing can you understand what the Two Witnesses are all about.
Basically Elijah comes to restore and in the end the Two Witnesses Restore Apostolic Authority to the Church .
All Israel went out to see Elijah
Elijah on Mount Carmel restores the altar by putting the 12 stones in place, putting the wood in order ,covering the sacrifice with water (12 portions) and then at the evening sacrifice the fire falls and all the water is "licked up" and their is only one thing i know that licks.A tongue
Then we have
All Judea and the Surrounds went out to see John
John baptises all the Apostles (12)
He then Baptises Jesus and what does Jesus say
permit it so that all things will be fulfilled
Jesus was fulfilling the Mt Carmel Prophetic Pattern where Elijah pours water over the sacrifice.
We have wood in order the cross.
Then the last thing that happens one sentence before Pentecost is that Peter says we must choose another to replace Judas and the criteria is that he had to be with them from John and thats the key here.
This shows that all the Apostles came under Johns ministry before they came under Jesus Ministry
And finally the fire fell and they had "tongues" of fire.

The pattern is undeniable to be honest and from knowing this we check where the three and half year pattern happens again.
And that is the Two Witnesses .They have all the powers Elijah and Elisha had and they come with repentance signified by sackcloth.
Elijah is raptured and so are the Two etc and their is way more similarities,
urs staff

 2020/12/6 22:38Profile

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