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  A Perverse Disconnect

Written recently by a Jewish believer presently living in Tennessee whose Jewish grandfather perished in the camp at Auschwitz:

"There are some who teach, even to the point of being giddy, that Jesus will be hosting a “marriage supper” on the heels of a pre-tribulation rapture,” lasting the full seven years of the Seventieth Week of Daniel. That would mean that there would be great feasting and rejoicing in heaven right on through to the end of the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble.” Just ponder that for a moment..."

"There is a strange, and I will even go so far as to say, a perverse disconnect when believers can read Scriptures like Romans 9, 10 and 11 and can come up with the “blessed hope” as being that of an imminent rapture of the Church, with no thought of having any responsibility in Israel’s redemption, or as one man has expressed it, a mentality that says, “Jacob’s Trouble” is “Jacob’s Problem.”

"There is a serious disconnect here, and worse, your testimony to the Jew just got tossed into the refuse heap!” And, what a perverse disconnect from the reality of what the vast majority of the Church is subjected to on a daily basis throughout much of the world. We should be embarrassed."

"Perhaps, they should take the same advice that Mordecai gave to Queen Esther, “Do not imagine that you in the king’s palace can escape any more than all the Jews.” For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place and you and your father’s house will perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a time as this?"

Fred London




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David Winter

 2020/12/2 13:23Profile
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 Re: A Perverse Disconnect

I find that powerful.


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Tim

 2020/12/2 16:12Profile
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 Re: The Church's End-Time Calling to Israel

In Matt. 25, where Jesus foretells of the judgment, we see a direct correlation between how the nations or the Gentiles treated His Jewish brethren during their times of greatest need, and resulting in how they were ultimately judged. It’s not that loving the Jew somehow earns us a ticket to heaven. But, it does bear witness to the authenticity of our love for God.

It’s why Jesus could say, “to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.” And, by the same token, “As you did it not to the least of these brothers of Mine, you did it not to Me.” In other words, we show our love for Christ in the way in which we tangibly demonstrate that love to His Jewish brethren.

2500 years ago, a Moabitess named Ruth made this remarkable statement to a Jewess named Naomi, a statement which the Jew will need to hear and see demonstrated by the Church in that day when the Jew will need her the most. “For where you go, I will go, and where you lodge, I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and you’re God, my God. Where you die, I will die, and there I will be buried. Thus may the Lord do to me, and worse, if anything but death parts you and me.” Ruth got it! And, God saw fit to record the story of this, otherwise, simple woman in the Bible for all time. Why? So, that the Church of the future would also, “Get it!

Mordecai had this sobering counsel for Esther when her people were faced with annihilation, and the Church would do well to take it to heart. “Do not imagine that you in the king's palace can escape any more than all the Jews. For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place and you and your father’s house will perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a time as this?”

So, what does this mean for the Church? Just as the full identity of Jesus was revealed to the Roman centurion as He hung before him on the Cross, so too, will Jesus be revealed to the Jew as they see the Church willing to endure the Cross for the sake of His brethren. It is for this very reason that the Church must be made aware and prepare for the days ahead when Israel and the Jew scattered abroad will need her the most.

It’s been said that the best thing you can do for a future spouse, even before you know who that might be, is to become strong in your faith. Likewise, the best thing the Church can do for the Jewish People in preparation for the difficult times that are yet to come when they will need her the most, is to become corporately strong in the faith, and functioning as God originally intended, “that she might serve the purposes of God in her generation.”

If the Church isn’t what she’s supposed to be in the present, she will have a very difficult time in being what she will be required to be in the future. The Scriptures tell us that prior to Christ’s return, it will be the most perilous time in World History, and especially for Jews and Christians, alike. But, they also tell us, that, for the Church, it will be the time of her greatest glory and ministry leading to the salvation of the Jewish People, that remnant of Israel, called according to the promise of the Everlasting Covenant.

We see the theological mandate encapsulated in Romans Chapter 11. I use the term, “encapsulated,” because this one chapter truly represents the sum total of Scripture concerning God’s Everlasting Covenant with Israel and what God intends that to mean for the Church, in theology, attitude, practice and overall responsibility. In Israel’s welfare, is the Church’s welfare, with their destinies inextricably linked, that apart from the remnant of Israel, the Church should not be made perfect.

(Fred London)


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David Winter

 2020/12/3 13:29Profile
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 Re:

David- how do you see this playing out in reality?


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Todd

 2020/12/3 15:32Profile
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 Re:

Well, first of all, to begin to make adequate preparation for coming events, I believe the church needs to understand that His second coming and the end of the age Jesus was asked about and replied to did not mean He would come again in judgment in 70 AD and not make a second physical appearance at that time. The foundation for this type of Preterism is replacement theology, which long ago wrongfully rendered Israel null and void as far as having any relevant modern prophetic significance.

Contrary to what much of the church today believes, I do not think that the return and re-emergence of Israel in 1948 is the return and spiritual birth of a nation that the Hebrew prophets forecast and recorded. It was for sure an against all odds event allowed by God for sovereign reasons. Yet, there is too much difference between it and what the prophets spoke of regarding a return leading to a national and spiritual national renewal heralding the Messianic age (Isaiah 66:7-9). What is missing, I believe, from much of the modern church, is a knowledge of the Hebrew view of eschatology and the "time of the end" leading to the end of this present evil age. What did they mean when they referred to the coming of the kingdom of God, the day of the Lord, and a time of lasting national renewal after the rebels and unbelieving had been purged from the land? Why did all agree that the coming of the kingdom of God would be preceded by a time of unprecedented trouble just prior to this coming (Deut 4:30; Jer 30:7; Daniel 12:1; Matt 24:21; Rev 7:14). Even intertestamental rabbis and Jewish sources, outside the canon of the Bible, record a belief in this never before experienced time of trouble before the nation's spiritual rebirth. How does all this tie in with modern Israel?

All of God's dealings with Israel are done so within the perimeters of covenant. Modern Israel has, for the large part, not embraced the new covenant in Christ, so they are still confined within the blessings or curse motif of the Deuteronomic covenant(Deuteronomy 28-32). Part of the curses of the covenant was dispersion and exile from the land for disobedience. Far from being inviolable just because they are Jews and reside in Israel once again, the modern state presently remains in danger of further dispersion and exile from the land. They remain secular for the large part, which is a great transgression in the Lord's sight as they continue to rely on the arm of the flesh. I believe, therefore, that, under the chastising hand of the Antichrist, that the nation will once again be put to flight as sudden destruction will catch them unaware while they are crying peace and safety. “Then let those in Judea FLEE!” (Matthew 24:16-22). Flee from where? Judea is in Israel. This time of fleeing is the beginning of the unprecedented time of trouble and tribulation so often forecast by the prophets and Jesus Himself (Matthew 24:21).

As the modern state is once again experiences the bitter curses of the covenant and the residents of the land are once again driven into the nations, to be sifted a final time (Amos 9:9), it is hoped that there they will find a church prepared and waiting for them. This church would not point the finger in accusation toward them but would be willing to serve and lay down its life for them as far as possible. Anti-semitism will likely be at a renewed fever pitch at this time, and the Jew may not find any willing to help among all the nations. Except for the church! This final witness to them by the church in the wilderness of the nations will go a long way toward healing the historic riff between the synagogue and the church. The chief means within the church's witness would be to employ the use of prophetic scripture already fulfilled in the history of Israel. If these prophecies came true to the very letter, then the church would be able to use prophecy and explain to the once again wandering Jew why these events are occurring. It would be the witness of prophecy within the bonds of covenant. “And those of the people who understand shall instruct many” (Daniel 11:33). The main goal would be to guide them to the only place of safety found in Jesus. Even now, it might be prudent to consider beginning to prepare places of refuge, nourishment, and substainment for the outcasts from the land that will occur again sooner or later, likely sooner. If the church has prepared an answer for the Jews, it has prepared an answer for every man. I believe those who proclaim Israel today is inviolable and incapable of defeat are ignoring large portions of eschatological scripture simply because of their own ignorance and because it just does not sit well with them that a tragedy of colossal proportions still awaits world Jewry. How can we prepare now serve them during this time is a question we need to begin asking.

Quoting, This is why the church must not shrink from confronting Israel with the evidence of prophecy and of history's witness to the judgment of the covenant (Deut 28-32), regardless of its current state of biblical literacy. The witness of the prophetic Word, and the life that points to that witness, is still the only means of divinely sanctioned means of evangelism. The lack of Jewish biblical literacy only calls for the church's greater responsibility to educate itself in those critical themes that touch God's own witness as contemporary events compel Jewish consideration of the biblical categories of covenant and prophecy, of judgment and salvation. “ (Reggie Kelly)

Christ returns AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days (Matthew 29:31). I believe then is when the true return to the land as envisioned by the prophets will begin. To view the modern state of Israel as still in danger and to be uprooted again is UNTHINKABLE in the minds of many, but as Art Katz once said, “The prophets cause you to have to think the unthinkable.” The wrath of the man of sin/Antichrist and the opposition of the nations will be no other than the final chastisement of the covenant. The death of the modern state will yet lead to its true resurrection, which is the foremost biblical pattern of all – death before life. Christ modeled it exactly. So the nation is destined to undergo final suffering before glory and the establishment of the theocratic millennial kingdom. If those closest to Christ and the apostles in the earliest church were premillennial, then I find safety in their witness as I hold the view of a coming theocratic kingdom with saved Israel and Jerusalem established as the servant head of the nations. Meanwhile, how ready is the church to receive and nourish the wandering Jew who will appear once again in the wilderness of the nations?

In my opinion, as you hold to the view of a personal Antichrist as being somewhat absurd, I find it equally absurd to maintain the view that the second physical coming Christ was asked about happened in 70 AD. Replacement theology and its Preteristic offshoot have done as much to cloud the church's proper eschatological perspective as anything else. What many believe today is not what the Jews of Jesus' day believed regarding the "time of the end." We still owe the Jews a debt. Will we be ready? Much is at stake.


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David Winter

 2020/12/4 16:03Profile
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 Re:

"...And when the dragon [Satan} saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman [Israel}who gave birth to the male Child, [Jesus Christ]. But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she [the Jewish believers?] could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time, times, and half a time, away from the presence of the serpent [Satan]. And the serpent hurled water like a river out of his mouth after the woman [Jews] so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. But the earth helped the woman [Jews], and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon [Satan]had hurled out of his mouth. So the dragon was enraged with the woman[Jews], and went off to make war with the rest of her children, [Gentile believers] who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus." To explain, he goes after all others in Christ Jesus [ You and me!] Revelation 12. Biblical....


"There was given to him [Anti-christ] a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven. It was also given to him to make war with the saints [those in Christ Jesus] and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, EVERYONE whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain." Revelation 13 Bibilcal.....

"Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the APOSTASY COMES FIRST, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, [ANTI-CHRIST] the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that he will be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is removed. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness" 2 Thessalonians 2 Biblical......

Dear brethren, as I get older my greatest prayer is that our Great God would give me agape love for His people and for all people! I do agree with our brother here based on these scriptures and Mark 13 written to the Roman Gentiles, and Luke 21, and Matthew 24. We are going to come into a time very difficult, with a person called the Anti Christ in bodily form. Though perhaps due to my own lack of understanding I don't see our Jewish brethren alone in there coming persecution, but all of US when that imitator the Anti-Christ comes into the temple and proclaims himself to be God!

I know brethren, true brethren with camping bags packed for that moment! That moment the Anti-Christ comes into the temple! Brethren I know honestly know Christ! Again as we have seen in the biblical passages of scriptures our God will call some of us to suffer and not run at that time. He will call, however some of you too run to the mountains when this event happens!

When God Almighty does remember, He will have work for YOU in those mountains to help some that were not prepared as He prepared you! Maybe you even end up in a jail, but not all! I could write so much more, explain the four END TIME views much clearer, but I am not called to do such. May our great God have mercy on each of US through Christ Death, Resurrection, and our continual and Individual Repentance through CHRIST alone, and in His great mercy! Guide us each through Christ, by the empowering of His Holy Spirit. Do not be discouraged, GOD will guide you at that moment according to His plans concerning you, God has plans concerning each of us.}

With prayer and respect for all of you and my own hands I cannot retract this. God's will be done on earth as it already is in heaven.....


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William

 2020/12/5 0:06Profile
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 Re:

David- I know the OP is not about 70 AD (at least I did not intend it to turn it into that) but you wrote the following which seems to be directed at me:

//In my opinion, as you hold to the view of a personal Antichrist as being somewhat absurd, I find it equally absurd to maintain the view that the second physical coming Christ was asked about happened in 70 AD.//

I have never said such a thing nor do I believe that now. I do, however, believe that Jesus did come in judgment against Israel in 70 AD(it’s obvious) but I don’t believe that was a “second coming.”
——
EDIT: you are correct that I do not believe in a future literal individual who will be “the Antichrist.” But I don’t believe the second coming was in 70 AD.
———

That aside, I asked how you think this worldwide persecution against the Jews will come to be and how the Church is expected to help. I have a hard time envisioning it. If there is some sort of “Nazi” worldwide sentiment and enforcement how can millions of Jews hide in the wilderness, or in churches for that matter?

I understand your basic premise- that the Church must assist Jewish refugees, but it is not clear how/why they will become refugees. Israel will spark a global nuclear conflagration before it allows that to happen.


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Todd

 2020/12/5 8:20Profile
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 Re:

Quote: If there is some sort of “Nazi” worldwide sentiment

There is a "nazi" worldwide sentiment you'll find it in Islam and on the left.. It is in those two groups you find the anti-christ spirit.


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Colin Murray

 2020/12/5 12:53Profile
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1786


 Re: A Perverse Disconnect

Hi
It was not the grandfather that wrote this which is important as he is using his grandfathers death as his authority not scripture and did not use any scripture to back up his views.

God is outside of time and the bible says he is all powerful and can do more than one thing at a time.He can be unhappy with Cain and happy with Abel all at the same time.
If the logic is to be carried true to the end then before we celebrate anything we will have to wait for everything...
I would rather the writer was honest and say I am a post tribulation believer,I have a huge problem with the subject of grace but i will replace grace with conditional grace which is not grace at all,urs staff

 2020/12/5 13:07Profile
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 Re:

Colin- if there is huge anti Semitic sentiment on “the left” then why are almost all Jews (in America at least) left leaning if not radical left? I dare say the vast majority voted for Biden and the leftist agenda.


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Todd

 2020/12/5 13:38Profile





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