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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Believing the Prophets about the USA election.. 2 chron 20...

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dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1712
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

Staff,

Our country is better when people like you pay attention to issues. I appreciate you and your heart, too. A brother I know has cautioned many to not allow patriotism to be an idol, but not to throw love of country into the trash while we await the troubling times to come. After all, peace and liberty are not altogether gone from us. People have, indeed, voluntarily died for these freedoms we have. We're together thankful for what we still have. And, we're together concerned about losing it.

I will respond to a few of your last points, respectfully.

You said, "My understanding by listening to Guiliani is that they are just going through the motions with the lower courts and dont expect to win anything much at state level."

"Going through the motions" requires substantive evidence of the things they complain about. I don't think they have it. We can recite what they have and think they have all day, but it doesn't add up to meeting the burden of proof in court. IF they have it, and produce it, and the cases get tossed, then it is possible that the appeals process may yield some fruit -- even if not enough to matter. We'll see. I know why Rudy said what he said, but I also know that to prevail on appeal, you have to present real, substantive evidence that meets the burden of proof. We'll see.

You said, "The way I see it is that the supreme court judge over a particular circuit can hear and rule on a case brought to her or him without the whole supreme court being involved.If for instance the decision went in favour of Trump then Biden would have to appeal to the full supreme court to overturn that decision."

I'm afraid not. That is not at all how it works. Not at all. No individual justice may take up a matter on appeal. These cases are taken up through "appeals by right" or "certiorari". There are very, very few categories or cases of so-called "appeal by right". Almost all cases come to the SCOTUS through certiorari or "cert" as it is abbreviated. An appeal to them through cert is discretionary; they can take it or leave it. If 4 justices say "let's take it", then "cert" is "granted" and the Court hears the case. If fewer than 4 say so, "cert" is "denied" and whatever the most recent decision was remains -- that's the end of the line. In Bush v. Gore, for example, they took it. They didn't have to. They don't have to in any of the cases currently filed by or for the President's benefit.

What you describe, though, in your statement IS akin to a process in the Circuit Courts of Appeal. There, appeals from federal trial courts go by right. The circuit courts each have a presiding judge. The circuits also have rotating, territorial panels of three judges who can hear initial appeals. These 3 judge panels often decide appeals from federal trial courts, but the loser CAN ask the full court in that circuit to rehear the case "en banc" (meaning the whole lot of them), but even those requests may be denied. Since only 1 percent of ALL cert requests are granted, it would be unusual indeed if the SCOTUS granted a cert request to appeal a decision of a 3 judge panel where en banc review was denied. But, it happens.

But, it still doesn't come down to one judge's ruling. There is no appellate process where one federal judge or SCOTUS justice decides the ultimate case. (Refer to my earlier post today about what a single Justice CAN do in very limited cases for very limited times, and none of these appear to fall within that category and if they did, it wouldn't matter but for a few days at most.)





_________________
Tim

 2020/11/23 16:21Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1897


 Re:

Hi Dolfan,
I still go back to Dick Morris's point that is far better to have conservative Judges in charge of these states for Trump than not and this advantage wasnt the case before Friday.The manoevering was very timely and none of the real evidence has been put forward yet as its a process .No Obama appointed Judges are going to favour Trump under any circumstances.
I have no doubt that wide scale voter fraud is being used to rob Trump of the election.If their was nothing to hide the thief would show us whats in his bag and wouldnt be afraid of scrutiny.Can we get to see whats in his bag is the question,staff

 2020/11/23 18:36Profile
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1712
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

What I'm going to describe is legal stuff, not my heart toward you. So, don't take this as correction, etc. Just information, please. With love.

It is a process, as you say.

But, when you're asking for emergency relief -- and all these cases fall in that category because of the timetables involved -- you have to make what is called a "proffer" of your evidence up front. You usually have to allege and aver it in the initial pleadings.

He can't sit on the evidence without saying up front what it is, and then wait for his day in court. The evidence, if it exists, should already have been described with some specificity. Without doing so, you fail to provide a basis in fact to support a claim for relief. This is especially true in cases, like these, requesting for what is called "extraordinary relief" (i.e., orders stopping vote counts, stopping certifications of vote counts, tossing out specific votes or types of votes, etc.). To this point, no one has made the public argument (nor in pleadings or motions so far as I can tell) that such evidence exists and is presentable in court.

What we have seen is some argument about the voting machine company, ease of hacking, ties to leftist politicians and some voter irregularities --- none of which taken individually or altogether add up to "these specific votes were fraudulent, illegal, etc.". I suspect fraud higher than the One World Trade Center, but I don't think they have the evidence and if they did it would have been put forth early in these filings.

What it appears to be is that the president had a loose confederation of lawyers and people sympathetic to him and no overarching legal strategy and --- worse --- no real legal theory or reason under the law why these votes are not legal votes. Without that, you cannot just scramble for facts to cobble together a strategy. Just being plainly honest, President Trump does not have a great track record on picking his legal teams for court battle. They're almost never particularly successful for him, and he tends to pick people whose actions make them appear a bit unhinged. (We can't use the impeachment case as an example of a good legal team because that is not really a legal case but a political one. Plus, the case against him was about as weak as Pres. Trump's cases in this election.)

Again: I believe the game was rigged from the get-go, but this must meet legal standards of proof and substantive law. For the life of me, I can't see anywhere close. So far, no judge has seen it either. It is a fighter in a mighty bad way who can't even land a jab.

The argument that "if there was nothing to hide" that Biden's campaign "would show us" is a non-starter. Biden doesn't have to prove anything. Trump is the one suing. Trump alone bears the full burden of proof. Trump has to prove that there is a bag, that there is something in the bag, what that something is, and that the something resulted in sufficient illegally cast or illegally counted votes to change the outcome of the election. That's the law.



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Tim

 2020/11/23 20:09Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1897


 Re:

Hi Dolfan.
I dont go with your analysis at all to be honest.
I think when it comes to evidence you have to bide your time if you have it.
The Thief in this case Biden(democrats) doesnt have to show us what he has stolen and put in his bag but the fact that they were hiding shows us that voter fraud was taking place.
God knows however whats in the bag ......and if he wants it revealed the law wont get in his way.
The arguement that no evidence has been put forward doesnt matter as Obama state judges are bought and paid for and would never come down on Trumps side no matter what evidence.Their is a better chance of CNN coming to help Trump than liberal Judges.
The Nuremburg trials had to pause its proceedings because one of the Nazi Lawyers put up an arguement that the Nazis were only following orders or the law.After a while the case got to continue when the Allied prosecutor said that "their is a law higher than the law" and that they broke that.
Their is a law giver higher than the law and the fact remains that anyone arguing that Donald Trump will eventually win are saying in essense "we think God is going to intervene with a miracle".They are saying that we have come to the edge of the Red Sea and the Eygptian Army is behind us and we think God is going to intervene and make away .They are saying that we are about to get hung tomoro on a gallows but that we think haman will actually die by his own construction and they are saying "did I not throw 3 men into that furnace but now I see 4 and the fourth looks like the Son Of God.
Whether they will be killed by the Eyptians ,get hung by the neck or burn in a fiery furnace is now up to God but as for me and mine we will not bow the knee to worship the King even if God doesnt take us out of the furnace ,staff

p.s They are also saying Lazarus is dead four days and his body is corrupted (smells) at this stage but Master if it your will raise this body from corruption

 2020/11/23 20:57Profile
DEADn
Member



Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1378
Lakeland FL

 Re: Believing the Prophets about the USA election.. 2 chron 20...

Why???


Where is the prophetic voice here?
Why do you trust in something that is false?
Cogntive Dissoance

"Bro and sisters.
There are many opinions about this current election in the USA. Im not into opinions or secular news.. I am believing that the TRUE prophetic words have said. I believe Prophet Kim Clement said President Trump will serve two terms.
You believe what you will. I will believe the Prophetic voices that are speaking.. Yes Pls test the spirits as the WORD teaches."

Matt 7:22-23

22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

I am beginning to believe that there are those who would rather trust in those who prophesy, even falsely, then trust what the bible teaches and warns us about AND will even twist that teaching in order to help themselves to that disorder

Why?

Kim Clement obviously got it wrong so why trust in his 'prophetic' word and not mark and avoid him? And others like him?

Why?


_________________
John

 2020/11/24 8:17Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1897


 Re:

Hi Deadn,

Are their prophetic voices today? yes in my opinion

The Prophetic is for Edification, Exhortation, and Consolation .
How do you propose to edify,exhort or console without the prophetic?

Why did Kim Clement obviously get it wrong?
This election is not over yet unless their is some information I am missing?Their have been no court cases of any importance yet.It took 2yrs and 40million euro investigation by Mueller into Russian collusion yet everyone is yelling for evidence only 2weeks after the election.What hyporcrisy.

Many SI believers in my experience are so longing for persecution that they wont except the obvious that God put Trump as a barrier from evil to protect his Church at this time .I dont want persecution and Im pretty sure Paul rathered his two years in a house in Rome ministering in peace than persecution but if it comes it comes..staff

 2020/11/24 9:55Profile
DEADn
Member



Joined: 2011/1/12
Posts: 1378
Lakeland FL

 Re:

"The Prophetic is for Edification, Exhortation, and Consolation .
How do you propose to edify,exhort or console without the prophetic?
"

Too much emphasis on the prophetic. Why is the bible not enough to exhort, edify and rebuke? It is the pentecostal wing of the christian church who, indirectly say, the bible is not enough we need a 'fresh' word for today. This is how seduction of soul happens in the church.

Prophetic has become the substitute for scripture. Itching ears casuses this this yet see what Paul wrote to Timothy


2 Timothy 3:

14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it

15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work




And then another exhortation from Paul to Timothy to which I admonish you with the same. Using today's prophetic people, as they call themselves, will seduce you away.

2 Timothy 4

I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead [b]at His appearing and His kingdom:

2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;

4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.


_________________
John

 2020/11/24 11:25Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1897


 Re:

Hi Deadn,
This is the bible .Paul said Prophesy is to exhort,edify and console.Paul says that not me,this is the bible but you are saying Paul is wrong that Prophesy is not to be used to edify exhort and console.You cant replace Prophetic exhortation or edification or consolation because you dont like it.God uses the prophetic and the bible without the prophetic is just a dusty old book with words ,dry as dry can be .Your logic that people exhorting and edifying and consoling prophetic edification,consolation or exhorting is not in line with Pauls teaching on it,urs staff



1 Corinthians 14:3
New International Version

3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort

 2020/11/24 12:32Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5764
NC, USA

 Re:

Staff-

There is prophecy in the sense of “forthtelling”- men like Tozer, Ravenhill, Hafner, etc then there is prophecy in the sense of “foretelling.”

The former should be sought after and delivered often; the latter should be exceedingly rare and I mean exceedingly.


_________________
Todd

 2020/11/24 14:46Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1897


 Re:

TMK,
Jesus broke your rule then.Their is no rule in the bible prescribing that and its unbiblical in my opinion.
This isnt a question of whether SI Christians think False prophets are wrong ,its a case of SI Christians not believing in any Prophets,
Can you give me an example of a "proper" Foretelling on youtube?
urs staff

 2020/11/24 14:51Profile





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