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BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 725
Australia

 Re:


Thank you, David (Doc), for your response.

Your friend has given many scriptures.

Let me go through them and give you a reply soon.

Blessings


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Jade

 2020/9/4 8:22Profile
BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 725
Australia

 Re:


Todd wrote:

Quote:
But I can say that in reference to the mysteries of Dan 12, that Peter believed these referred to the mysteries of salvation by faith in Christ. Daniel asked for clarity but was kept in the dark and even the angel in the vision could not understand.

“Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.“
1 Peter 1:10-12




I am still studying this chapter but will say that I am inclined to agree with Todd.


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Jade

 2020/9/4 8:39Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2193


 Re:

No problem whatsoever. Take thy time.


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David Winter

 2020/9/4 10:17Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5588
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 Re:

I enjoy this topic but I will bow out and just read. I’m interested to see how and where it goes.


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Todd

 2020/9/4 13:54Profile
followthelamb
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Joined: 2010/12/7
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re: Daniel's Prophetic Visions

Hi Jade,

Haven't read through all the responses yet...even after logging out it still says "online!" but I have very limited time to be on here. :)

You had mentioned:

"Yet Daniel did not mention a second return of the Jews in his 70 Weeks prophecy. Much appreciate if you can give other scripture predicting this event."

Though I don't know the Old Testament scriptures off hand that apply, this reminded me of something the Lord said when He was prophesying the destruction of 70AD. He said:

"And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

Though this verse does not specifically say that the Jews will return to Israel and Jerusalem, thought it was worth sharing in this discussion.

Love and blessings to you all!








 2020/9/4 16:38Profile
BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 725
Australia

 Re:


Hi followthelamb,

Thank you very much for contributing the scripture on what Jesus said.

The formation of the nation of Israel in 1948 is a significant event.

My interest in the second return of the Jewish people in this thread is strictly confined to whether there is a clear word of God that there will be a second return BEFORE the events mentioned in Dan. 9:27.

If there is no such prophecy, then the Dispensational View of the 70th week stands on very shaky ground.

The Messianic View however does not require the second return of the Jewish people BEFORE the events mentioned in Dan. 9:27.

The Dispensational View of the 70th week obliges us to watch closely for the coming of the antichrist.

The Messianic View of the 70th week fixes our eyes on Jesus and the wondrous blessings of the New Covenant in His precious blood, which are for the Jewish people too. For this reason, I am in favour of the Messianic View.

Love & Blessings





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Jade

 2020/9/5 1:59Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2193


 Re:

Hi BranchinVINE.

I am not a Dispensational believer. You haven't referred to me as such but I just thought I would mention it. I believe Israel and the controversy over the land etc. will play a central role in events at the end of the age but I don't believe there are two peoples of God, Israel and then the church. Dispensationalism teaches that those saved during the tribulation are not going to be part of the Church and will not be indwelled by the Holy Spirit as all other believers over the centuries have been. I do not ascribe to this doctrine yet I believe that Christ will make a post-tribulational return to Israel. Not that I am the judge, but I've also found dispensational believers to be among some of the most fervent and God loving people to be found. I just don't ascribe to that particular point of belief but brothers and sisters in the Lord they are. Kudos.

Regarding Daniel 9:27 and the Dispensational view versus the Messianic view, one fact I believe to be important in determining the proper answer to this question is to remember that the taking away of the daily sacrifices and the abomination of desolation is spoken of four times in Daniel and not just in Daniel 9:27.

11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the DAILY SACRIFICES WERE TAKEN AWAY, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. (Daniel 8:11)

27 But in the middle of the week He shall BRING AN END TO SACRIFICE AND OFFERING, and on the wings of abominations shall be one who makes desolate. (Daniel 9:27)

31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall TAKE AWAY THE DAILY SACRIFICES, and place there the abomination of desolation. (Daniel 11:31)

11 And from the time that THE DAILY SACRIFICE IS TAKEN AWAY,
and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. (Daniel 12:11)

Also,

15 Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand),... (Matthew 24:15).

We see that in Daniel 8:11, 11:31, and 12:11, that each time the abomination of desolation spoken of it is accompanied by the taking away of the daily sacrifices. It is an evil personage doing this in these three passages and in Daniel 9:27 we see one who will bring an abomination that makes desolate as (curiously in the middle of the week) he takes away the daily sacrifices. The point is, that if in three passages it is an evil personage doing this taking away and making desolate why is all of a sudden Christ supposed to the one doing it in Daniel 9:27? That is in no way speaking against Christ and His work, it's just trying to rightfully compare Daniel 9:27 with the other three passages in Daniel that speak of the same thing.

That's all bro. Altogether, I feel like I have overloaded you a bit and I apologize for that. I'm sorry if I have posted too much and should have slowed down a bit. But thank you for your interest and the time you have taken to discuss things.

PTL forever!




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David Winter

 2020/9/5 12:45Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2193


 Re:

/If you can’t read Daniel 12:2 and see why it may not be referring to the final resurrection of all persons at Jesus’s second coming then I can’t help you/

Yet, you have left many loose ends hanging. You have said there are many reasons to believe this is not the resurrection at Christ's coming being spoken of, but you gave none of those reasons.

Who do you believe those being resurrected are in Daniel 12:2 and why do you believe so? For the sake of sound and clear discussion, this you left unanswered.

Blessings. Thank you.


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David Winter

 2020/9/5 12:58Profile
deogloria
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Joined: 2020/2/12
Posts: 42


 Re: Biblical foundation

I just like to look at the topic a bit more from a Biblical point of view, without going into all the History details.
I hope this might help some people.

When God uses the word "seventy" then He always means 70.
Eg Cainan lived seventy H7657 years, and begat Mahalaleel...
Moses,...and seventy H7657 of the elders of Israel
Then we have the 70years of captivity.
Nobody would think of 70 as 69 plus a unspecified number plus 1

Dan 9:27 And "he" shall confirm the covenant H1285 with many for one week
We can't link "he" with a Antichrist, because there is no Antichrist mentioned anywhere in the chapter.
We read about a "covenant"
But the Bible never uses the term "7 year tribulation"

There is quite a bit more that I could add, but this is enough for me to see that a Biblical foundation can't be established.
Most Biblical scholars in the past did not believe in a personal Antichrist to come in the future. I just mention Matthew Henry, the Reformers, John Wesley, but there are many many others.

Most important; we should be disciples, followers of Jesus and not of some -ology and -ism.
We could miss out on the deeper things, the truths about every spiritual blessing we have been given in Christ, as makrothumia beautifully explains it in his thread.
May we be like the wise one who is hearing...

 2020/9/5 21:56Profile
BranchinVINE
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Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 725
Australia

 Re:

Hi Doc,

Thank you for the scriptures you gave regarding the second return of the Jewish people to their land.

This is my conclusion:

We can take other scriptures on what we consider to be prophecies of the second return of the Jewish people to their land and plant them in the 70 Weeks prophecy and hold that the second return of the Jews is implied in Dan. 9:24-27.
My Question:
But exactly where would you place this event in Dan. 9:24-27? The 70 weeks prophecy is precise in the placing of dates and events.

OR

We can strongly maintain that as there is NO mention of a second return of the Jewish people to the land in Dan. 9:24-27, and neither is there any mention of the building of a third temple, therefore, there is NO second return of the Jewish people and NO building of a third temple for the Antichrist to desecrate BEFORE the seventieth week. That is, the prophesied seventieth week is BEFORE 1948. And the covenant mentioned in the seventieth week is the grand and glorious New Covenant of our great Saviour and not some ignoble covenant of the Antichrist.


What saith ye?



Quote:
Regarding Daniel 9:27 and the Dispensational view versus the Messianic view, one fact I believe to be important in determining the proper answer to this question is to remember that the taking away of the daily sacrifices and the abomination of desolation is spoken of four times in Daniel and not just in Daniel 9:27.



I will take a closer look into this and reply as soon as able.



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Jade

 2020/9/6 0:49Profile





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