SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Daniel's Prophetic Visions

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 Next Page )
PosterThread
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2193


 Re:

Oops. He was speaking to Nigel and not me. So I deleted my reply. Sorry.


_________________
David Winter

 2020/9/3 18:33Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5588
NC, USA

 Re:

David-

Did Jesus come in judgment on Jerusalem in 70 AD?

Old Testament imagery helps us see that the Olivet Discourse did come true. Jesus likely used His “coming on the clouds” as a figurative image of God’s judgment, just as the prophets did (see Isa. 19). It seems best to see Jesus in the Olivet Discourse predicting His “coming” through the Roman army in 70 a.d. to judge Jerusalem for rejecting Him. This is especially true as Jesus said this would occur in their generation.

And—- Isn’t it rather ridiculous that you are questioning someone’s heart because they don’t agree with your interpretation? Lots of folks don’t agree with your interpretation. When you start questioning “hearts” it smacks of desperate pleading.

Besides you already warned Jade that there would be disagreement on this topic and when someone disagrees you question their heart.

I don't question your heart even though I think you are wrong- why do you question mine?


_________________
Todd

 2020/9/3 18:43Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2193


 Re:

Note I deleted that post and felt better for doing so. I am the first to admit I don't always say things right. So I'm sorry for any slight on my part.

Yes, judgment fell on Jerusalem in 70 AD but if just that was what Christ was referring to when He answered the question, "What will be the SIGN OF YOUR COMING and the END OF THE AGE?" His coming again will be at the end of the age which is when the dead are resurrected. That is so obviously what Christ was referring to.

When did the Roman armies or Titus exalt themselves above all gods and declare that they were God and that worship should be to them alone (Daniel 11:36; II Thessalonians 2:4)? If Titus and his armies placed a statue of a god in the temple of that day, then it proves they were not saying we and we alone are god and demand that only we be worshipped. If they believed that they would not have placed statue of a god besides themselves in the temple.

Earlier, even Antiochus Epiphanes issued a coin with Zeus on one side and his (Antiochus) inscription on the other side. So even Antiochus didn't believe He was god alone. He was still mindful of Zeus and the other so called gods. If he believed he was the only God why did he place a statue of a god besides himself in the temple of that day? The latter day, "time of the end" Antichrist will exalt himself above all gods and declare Himself to be God alone. The plainness of the language does not need reinterpretation.

More importantly, were the dead resurrected in 70 AD? Christ's coming again has always been associated with the time of the physical resurrection of the dead.

The sign of your coming and the end of the age is plain uncomplicated language. It is as plain as plain can be. It speaks so loudly in its plainness that it doesn't need reinterpreatation so as to connect it with events not even related to the end of the age. To see it in its plain meaning and to make it into something else entirely enters the realm of, "Has God really said?" in my opinion.

I know replacement theology has Preterism has as one of its foundations. So, if you believe Israel has no prophetic significance in the events at the end of the age and it's all in the past, then go with it, I just don't believe it. I hold to the view that Christ left Israel and will return to Israel. That does not in any way mar or disfigure the reality of the one new man in Christ. Anyway, please feel free to comment all you desire to. We can be civil even if I had a lapse and used poor wording.


_________________
David Winter

 2020/9/3 19:49Profile
drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 691
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

Todd, you said:

"All can be answered by the real person Antiochus Epiphanes who profaned the temple and placed a statue of Zeus (Jupiter) on the altar- the abomination of desolation."

It can't be both, and it can't be what Antiochus Epiphanes did, because Jesus speaks about it in the future tense.


_________________
Nigel Holland

 2020/9/3 20:05Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5588
NC, USA

 Re:

Nigel- Jesus is talking about 70 ad.

Daniel in that passage is prophesying about what Antiochus did during the time of the Maccabees.


_________________
Todd

 2020/9/3 20:14Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5588
NC, USA

 Re:

David wrote:

//His coming again will be at the end of the age which is when the dead are resurrected. That is so obviously what Christ was referring to.//

I agree that Jesus’s second coming will immediately precede the resurrection.

The Olivet Discourse does not mention the resurrection

If you are referring to Daniel 12:2, there is good reason to believe that does not reference the final resurrection of all persons. The OT contains examples of figurative resurrection (eg Ezek. 37).

And check out Simeon’s statement when baby Jesus was presented in the temple: “Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against (yes, a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”
Luke 2:34-35

That sounds quite a lot like Daniel 12:2 but Simeon is not referencing the final resurrection but rather salvation of those who trust in Messiah and the fall of those who do not.

Daniel 12:2 says “many” shall be raised (just like Simeon’s statement); clearly in the final resurrection all will be raised.


_________________
Todd

 2020/9/3 20:27Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2193


 Re:

/The Olivet Discourse does not mention the resurrection/

But the Olivet Discourse ends in the second coming of Christ which has always been the blessed hope of the Church. (Matt 24:29-31). This second coming is what Christ was asked about - what will be the sign of your coming. When Christ come the resurrection occurs.

/If you are referring to Daniel 12:2, there is good reason to believe that does not reference the final resurrection of all persons. The OT contains examples of figurative resurrection (eg Ezek. 37)./

What good reason is there? Can you provide any quotes or references as those who hold that it doesn't pertain to the resurrection of all persons? Daniel 12:2 is preceded by Daniel 12:1 which describes a final time of trouble and distress for the nation. So the final tribulation is followed in close time proximity by the resurrection in 12:2.

But again, what good reason is there to believe it does not refer to the resurrection at Christ's coming.

/And check out Simeon’s statement when baby Jesus was presented in the temple: “Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against (yes, a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.”
Luke 2:34-35

That sounds quite a lot like Daniel 12:2 but Simeon is not referencing the final resurrection but rather salvation of those who trust in Messiah and the fall of those who do not.?/

So how is that relevant? Bearing in mind that the resurrection of the dead was always associated with the coming of the Messiah and the end of the age, what dead do you believe were raised in 70 AD?



_________________
David Winter

 2020/9/3 21:10Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2193


 Re: BranchinVINE

/Yet Daniel did not mention a second return of the Jews in his 70 Weeks prophecy. Much appreciate if you can give other scripture predicting this event./

Regarding the return of the Jews to the land, at the bottom of this post, I have included some thoughts along with some scriptures that a friend sent me regarding this return. I told him of our discussion and he wanted to help and contribute a little if possible. Also, it is helpful in my opinion to remember that many times, the prophets repeated familiar themes that other prophets had addressed also. For instance, Jeremiah predicted a exile to Babylon that occurred yet he was able to remain in the land and Jerusalem. Ezekiel and Daniel were both carried into captivity and corresponded with Jeremiah while they were in Babylon. And all of them were expanding on themes already prophesied by Isaiah about 150 years before. The prophets painted an overall picture, many times tracking with one another although they lived centuries apart. If the prophecy of the 70 weeks did not mention a latter day return, this return was covered by some of the other prophets and woven into the big picture Daniel was commissioned and inspired to predict. Again, I believe the 70th week is to be fulfilled at the end of this present age. Therefore, a Jewish return to the land, in agreement with the prophets, is mandatory if the end-time scenario is to play out as forecast. I'm also aware you may know all of this. I'm just stating it again.

A Messianic Reset

"Jesus was the first to reveal that His coming would occur in two stages consisting of not one but two advents. "You have heard me say, I am going away and am returning to you" (John 14:28). The disclosure of this previously hidden mystery resulted in a divine reset of staggering proportions in the Messianic understanding of Jesus' disciples. Yet, unforeseen to the community of faith even then was the long interval of time that would transpire between the two comings. Unanticipated also was the almost unimaginable reality that for a majority of the interim between the two appearances, the covenant nation itself would be in exile."

"The return of the exiled nation to the land and its eventual messianic redemption at the end of this evil age was a prominent theme of the prophets. This end-time scenario is impossible without a Jewish presence in the land. Therefore, the latter-day return of a Jewish populace to the region known today as Palestine (formerly Canaan) and the reemergence of the modern state of Israel is one of the most significant prophetic signs to transpire since the resurrection of Christ."

(From "Prophecy and the Footsteps of the Messiah" which I wrote recently)

Here are my friend's thoughts:

(BEGIN)
I believe that the far greater number, very nearly all, of the return passages are post-tribulational, after the great national transforming revelation and repentance at Christ’s return.

However, there are a few passages that speak clearly enough of a “recent” return to the Land that is before the tribulation while the larger nation is yet in unbelief and therefore still vulnerable to covenant judgment, treading down, and even further dispersion (Joel 3:2; Isa 27:12-13; Mt 24:16; Lk 21:24; Rev 11:2; 12:6).

One example of a pretribulational return would be Jer 30:3-7, but it is not clear whether the return is the first return from Babylon or the modern return is in view. As typical of the near and far perspective of much of Hebrew prophecy, It works both ways, but the latter is most likely since the context suggests that this return is rather soon followed by the unequaled tribulation that ends with the salvation of the nation (Jer 30:7 with Dan 12:1; Mt 24:21).

Eze 38:8 is especially clear that the return is before the tribulation and the great day of God that ends in Israel’s eternal salvation (Eze 39:8, 22, 28-29). This becomes especially clear from comparing a couple of other scriptures that demonstrate that this return is after “ many generations of desolation” (Isa 61:4), after the Land has been a desolate wasteland of “ long continuance” (Eze 38:8).

Nothing in the earlier history of Israel has ever answered to this description except the age long exile that began with the final Roman destruction of 132 A.D. Only since then did the Land lay desolate for “many generation” and “of long continuance”.

Even Jeremiah’s prediction of 70 years did not fulfill this language. That was only one generation. This is many. Therefore, only the modern return in unbelief before the great tribulation answers to the context and language of Isa 61:4 & Eze 38:8.

So Eze 38:8 is decisively pre-tribulational and pre-DOL ((compare Eze 39:8 with Rev 16:12-17). Moreover, Eze 38:12-13 shows that the Land is a prosperous prize of great wealth and beauty when invaded by Gog / the Antichrist (Eze 38:17). This agrees with Joel 2:1-3, which shows that the final foe from north descends on a Land that is compared to Eden, and like a swarm of locust, the armies of the Antichrist turn the “beautiful Land” (Dan 8:9; 11:41) into a “desolate wilderness” (Joel 2:3).

There is also Eze 22:19-21. There we see the Lord gathering His apostate people back to Jerusalem for the final crucible of divine purging and smelting in preparation for the nation’s repentance. This too is a very clear instance of Jewish return or regathering before the tribulation while yet in unbelief.

The only other verse that I can recall right off hand is Zeph 2:1-3. There, the people are described as having recently gathered themselves to the Land BEFORE the tribulation an final stoke of judgment.

Zephaniah 2:1-2

Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;

Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.

Of course, some commentators see this as only the prophet’s warning to gather together in corporate repentance in order to turn away wrath, but this is a less likely reading. More likely, this is what can be called a prophetic taunt or indictment against the presumption that mere return to the Land is security against the discipline of the covenant. It was no security the first time the Jews returned from Babylon, and repatriation of the Land, if it be yet in unbelief, is no security now.

A full nation of Jews are in the Land when the 7 years begin, but many remain in the nations until the end when the penitent, now Spirit filled survivors all begin their long trek home (Isa 11:11-12, 15-16; 27:12-13; Eze 39:28-29). Other scriptures show that there is flight from the face of the Antichrist into the neighboring wilderness from which also many will return after the tribulation (Isa 16:1-5; 26:20-21; 27:12-13; 35; 42:11-14; Jer 32:2; Eze 20:34-40; Hos 2:14-15, Rev 12:6, 14, etc.).

You can see then how rare and context sensitive these few instances of Jewish return before the tribulation. But what is not rare are the many references where Jewish presence in the Land is assumed. Such a presence, particularly one so fertile, prosperous, and militarily secure, did not exist for the many centuries of desolation. All of this required a return after many generations of desolation and waste.

As to the climactic 70th week prophecy not mentioning Jewish return, why should it? Jewish national presence is completely assumed, since the goal of the 70 7’s was to bring the end of the times of the gentiles with the deliverance of the nation. Daniel need not reiterate what was affirmed throughout all the prophets that final deliverance would include the “full” return of the dispersed exiles with the final destruction of the Antichrist. For any of this to happen, the Jews obviously have to be back in the Land.

Everything depended on the return to the Land, which for centuries seemed distant and remote, with nothing on the immediate horizon to give much hope of this except the bare Word of God. But here we are! After many centuries, we’ve come full circle, the Jewish question and the question of the divine covenant gift of the Land has brought us around to another time when once more, Jerusalem has again become a “cup of trembling for all nations”, pulling all nations, like a swiftly swirling vortex, into the final conflict, the war to end all wars! (END)

I pray some of this helps BranchinVINE. Daniel is a book loaded and chock full of precious revelation. Besides the first eleven chapters of Genesis, it is the most hotly contested book in the Old Testament and not without reason. Someone said, the downfall of the devil is in the details of Daniel. But I will discuss or try and go through any portion of the book of Daniel you may desire to discuss.

Blessings to you good bro.






_________________
David Winter

 2020/9/4 5:54Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5588
NC, USA

 Re:

David it is obvious this topic is extremely important to you- far more so than it is for me.

If you can’t read Daniel 12:2 and see why it may not be referring to the final resurrection of all persons at Jesus’s second coming then I can’t help you.

But I can say that in reference to the mysteries of Dan 12, that Peter believed these referred to the mysteries of salvation by faith in Christ. Daniel asked for clarity but was kept in the dark and even the angel in the vision could not understand.

“Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.“
1 Peter 1:10-12


_________________
Todd

 2020/9/4 8:06Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5588
NC, USA

 Re:

Here are several teachings by RC Sproul on the “last days” and Olivet Discourse. I think most folks at least respect him as a student and teacher of the word. Of course there are many respectable Christians and teachers who believe similarly:

https://youtu.be/rUKtA0HLPrI (Destruction of Jerusalem)

https://youtu.be/Db2l1OyjU1s ( This generation)

https://youtu.be/Db2l1OyjU1s (The end of the age)

https://youtu.be/Pb5B5pjacCM (Literal of figurative?)

https://youtu.be/fwOgsg6KJH8 (Understanding the parousia)

https://youtu.be/H8PCrvPLqMo ( a question of time)

https://youtu.be/aDYBQjF93Ko ( the Antichrist)

https://youtu.be/vR12QsI8obs (The beast)


_________________
Todd

 2020/9/4 8:16Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy