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drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 691
Campbell River, B.C.

 Baptismal Regeneration

It's always been my view that water baptism is symbolic and does not actually save us. A man I've talked to recently holds the position that baptism is what brings salvation. I've seen some logical inconsistency in his arguments. The penitent woman (Luke 7:37-50), the paralytic man (Matthew 9:2), the publican (Luke 18:13-14), and the thief on the cross (Luke 23:39-43) all experienced forgiveness of sins apart from baptism. Paul said Jesus sent him not to baptize, but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). He quotes the church fathers, which I do not hold as authoritative. Anything the church fathers say must be subordinated to scripture.

I value the ordinances (water baptism and the Lord's supper) but I see them as physical symbols only. The view that the ordinances are efficacious in themselves is heretical. I believe that what the apostles taught is a man is saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9), and that faith must be in the finished work of Jesus on the cross.

I would rather ask someone about their personal experience i.e. do you have assurance of sins forgiven, do you know God, how is your prayer life, do you have supernatural love, peace and joy rather than argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin or what color the virgin Mary's eyes were. So much of theological debate falls into this latter category.


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Nigel Holland

 2020/8/14 13:35Profile
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 Re: Baptismal Regeneration

Quote:
The view that the ordinances are efficacious in themselves is heretical



Dear brother,

I believe you are hitting the nail squarely on the head with your statement above. In of "themselves" they are not efficacious at all. Water baptism is to be done upon confession and believe and it is clear to me that it goes beyond only a symbol in that it is a "command" of Christ, and it is as important as Spirit Baptism.

It is like saying to a believer just "believe" but do not live in "practical holiness" at all. All things are important that are in Scripture and the Lord's Supper carries with it a warning of the Lord's judgement if done improperly. So we must reverence all the ways of God but you are correct that it is FAITH in the Lord Jesus Christ that saves us, no outward action other then confession and belief.

Many early anabaptist believers died martyrs deaths for the right and importance to baptize believers, it was not enough for them to just say "confess".


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2020/8/14 13:41Profile
drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 691
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

So here's a question: I was baptized when I was 7 in an Anglican church and again of my own volition when I was 19 (just a friend and I). I didn't have assurance of sins forgiven until only a few years ago (I'm 34). I don't feel the need to be baptized again.

Does anyone here think I should?


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Nigel Holland

 2020/8/14 14:12Profile
davidkeel
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Joined: 2006/5/11
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West Sussex, England

 Re:

I never had confirmation of sins forgiven from the Lord until I genuinely repented. That was after being a spirit filled believer for two decades.
I was also baptized as a believer twenty years before I began to walk in a life of repentance. I haven't experienced the Lord asking me to get baptized again though. That's only my experience.


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David Keel

 2020/8/18 7:32Profile
drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 691
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

David, that's my experience as well. I see baptism as an outward sign of inward grace. True, God commands it, and I want to be obedient to everything he tells me to do; however I feel no need to be baptized again.

It seems to me that the more formal a church or denomination gets, the more they emphasize the sacraments as a way of salvation rather than symbols.


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Nigel Holland

 2020/8/18 7:53Profile
davidkeel
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Joined: 2006/5/11
Posts: 450
West Sussex, England

 Re:

Yes as Greg said it is commanded.
I was staying with friends in London who baptized me in a public place. The Lord confirmed to me afterwards of it's importance at what had taken place.


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David Keel

 2020/8/18 8:56Profile
mynameisMark
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 Re: Baptismal Regeneration

Nigel and David

Can you help me understand a bit more about what you mean by thee phrase "confirmation of sins forgiven?".
I have struggled and continue to struggle hugely with assurance of my own salvation. Are you saying that I must be lost because I haven't had a particular experience?

Mark

 2020/8/18 12:35Profile
davidkeel
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Joined: 2006/5/11
Posts: 450
West Sussex, England

 Re:

I would say for me it was more of a confirmation of eternal life not of sins forgiven both now and in the future.
I had previously had people telling me I was saved, and I did have the Holy Spirit working in my life. I hadn't been promised the confirmation of eternal life by the Lord though. Does the Lord use that uncertainty as a kind of Holy fear to keep us following Christ I wonder ? I don't know.
I'm glad you seem to be an honest person.

It was after I truly began to repent and be determined to change ... that I heard the Lord speaking to my heart about eternal life with Him.

Before this happened I did experience feelings of condemnation from the Holy Spirit. But these feelings happened when I wasn't walking in forgiveness toward others. So a Bible verse that would agree with this is : "condemn not and you will not be condemned". I was condemning others in my heart. But didn't know it until I had come out of that life and looked back on how I was behaving .. Maybe it was a feeling from the Lord just as a warning to me to turn my life around ? I'm not sure.
But it used to scare me that God would project those feelings to me.

Paul said we are "being saved". I think that means that we are still being saved out of the corruption of this present evil age.... both by the working of the Holy Spirit and also our willingness to follow the leading of the Lord to listen and obey Him.




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David Keel

 2020/8/18 13:55Profile
drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
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Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

Hi Mark. Knowing your sins are forgiven and that you have peace with God is definitely biblical and goes far beyond an emotional experience.

First we must believe by faith that Jesus forgives us of our sins, because He says "Whoever comes to me I will never turn away." (John 6:37) and "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)

Secondly, God will confirm by His Spirit that you are His child with supernatural peace in your spirit: "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:1) and "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God." (Romans 8:15,16) and "The work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever." (Isaiah 32:17).

If you don't have this, ask Jesus for it. I can tell you from experience, He is good to His word.


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Nigel Holland

 2020/8/18 15:17Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2764
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: Baptismal Regeneration

Nigel,

I'm not a proponent of baptismal regeneration but I'm curious how you read this verse, "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned." (Mark 16:16)

Also, what is it that the one who believes and is baptized is actually saved from? Hell? The World?

In Christ,


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Ron Halverson

 2020/8/18 19:45Profile





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