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deogloria
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Joined: 2020/2/12
Posts: 42


 Re: Rather listen to Jesus

Another very sad discussion indeed.
I would call this again "christianity today..."
To this day no one has ever shown me a clear verse in scripture that a Antichrist is coming.
So no point to discuss it.

The sad thing is, this doesn't promote biblical revival or unity.
David Wilkerson said in one of his messages that this would be coming, people would be joining this camp and that camp, people get books and tapes...christians fighting one another instead of fighting the devil, he wants to fight the real enemy, in our hearts, he wants pure devotion to Jesus Christ , he is not going to argue about the millenium...

(from his message: Another Jesus, another Spirit, another Gospel. You can listen in after about 47min to hear his own words.)

For some this topic is more important then the Gospel and pure devotion to Christ and His Holy Word. THIS is the real problem !
May the Lord Himself show this to us !

 2020/8/17 20:48Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1436
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: “personal”

1 John 2:18 seems to say there is “the Antichrist” as well as other “antichrists”

When a title is expressed/objectified in this way, that would connote a culmination in one persona, no?

Also doesn’t scripture teach that it’s both a group or series of persons possessed of the “spirit of antichrist” as well as an ultimate or singular person “the Antichrist” ?


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Fletcher

 2020/8/17 22:28Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1546


 Re:

Hi Deogloria,
Another way of looking at the Endtimes and the anti Christ would be like we look at the temple of the old testament as a type where Jesus fullfilled what was required by the law.
If you look at the 3 1/2 yrs you will see that it is to do with Elijah each time it occurs.

3 1/2 years ,Elijah ,Evil King in Ahab,Evil woman in Jezebel who wanted his head,12 stones,Sacrifice,water and Fire falling
3 1/2 yrs ,Elijah as in John The Baptist,Evil King Herod,Evil Woman who wanted his head,twelve stones in the twelve apostles,water from John and fire falling as in pentecost

3 1/2 yrs in Revelation and fill in the blanks
Elijah as in the two witnesses,baptism of repentance they wear sackcloth.Always when you see the Spirit of Elijah ,you will see the evil woman Jezebel and the Evil King AntiChrist

If you follow the 3 1/2 yrs you will see that their is an Evil King in the end ,staff

 2020/8/18 6:31Profile
docs
Member



Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2193


 Re:

/For some this topic is more important then the Gospel and pure devotion to Christ and His Holy Word. THIS is the real problem !
May the Lord Himself show this to us!/

As respectfully as I can reply, I have found this to be a common reply and somewhat blanket caricature toward many who are interested in these things, eschatology and the things of the end. To say to them it's more important than the saving Gospel and devotion to Christ is monumentally wrong. I'm speaking from experience. Yet I've found this argument to be common for some reason toward those who want to sort these things out as best they can. For some reason, it's the only field of Bible study that elicits such responses. It seems to me to be more of a learned response that doesn't carry as much weight as it may sound like it does. Not trying to be a burr here but eschatology, making up about thirty percent of the Bible is part of the whole counsel of God. Why ignore it or cast aspersion on those trying to make sense of it? It doesn't in any way replace the supreme importance of the saving Gospel or devotion to Christ. Not at all. Discussions about these things is not always an argument per say. The Spirit of Antichrist and the coming of "the" Antichrist at the end of the age is a prominent theme in the eschatological teachings of the Bible.

Thank you. Blessings.

The Peculiar Value of Prophecy - Samuel Tregelles (1813-1875)

The soul of a saint always finds establishment when it can truly repose upon the revealed will of God, when, amid the conflict of human thoughts and human actions, it can be brought simply to "God and the word of His grace." Those who are not so reposing may only look at the storm, but those who, like Paul in the tossed vessel, have had the word of God brought home to their ear can take courage themselves and rely upon the promise of safety even for the guidance of others.

This gives prophecy a peculiar value to the soul of the instructed Christian - he thus is warned of the coming events, but though he sees them he is not cast down, for he knows the issue beforehand. Our present calling is to walk in the midst of human things in the full practical recognition of the glories which have been made known to us as belonging to us in Christ our head, above at God's right hand. Prophecy has been bestowed on us in order that we may know how, in the midst of confusion and the varied forms of Satan's working, we may stand and act as those who belong to Christ. We know as a simple fact how the Church has greatly overlooked this important portion of God's revealed truth. We know also how the enemy has sought to cast a kind of discredit upon every effort which is made either for any to understand and use prophecy themselves, or to give instruction to others therein. But this, instead of leading us to overlook this precious deposit of God's truth, ought to make us the more earnest in not neglecting that which is so important. If discredit be cast upon such investigation it ought to cause us to look more to the God of all grace, that He may vouchsafe to us the teaching of His Spirit that so we may use it aright.

("Remarks on the Prophetic Visions in the Book of Daniel" - Ch 9 - by Samuel Tregelles - 1813-1875)



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David Winter

 2020/8/18 6:54Profile
drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 691
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

I don't particularly care about what position someone has about the Second Coming of Jesus; I won't cause division over it. But, if you are a christian, should you not be looking with anticipation for Jesus to return? It is, after all, our "blessed hope" (Titus 2:13).

Jesus said we should be able to discern the times and warned us over and over to watch and be ready.


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Nigel Holland

 2020/8/18 16:14Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5588
NC, USA

 Re:

We are closer to the Second Coming than they were 2000 years ago but that is all we can say with certainty. We have zero idea when it will be.

We should be committed disciples of Jesus, regardless of our end times view.


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Todd

 2020/8/18 16:52Profile
drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 691
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

We know, according to Luke 21 and other scriptures, that Jesus is coming soon because all the signs are being fulfilled (unless He came back in the first century in the clouds, with power and great glory like He said He would and everybody missed it). Reading Luke 21, for example, properly, would be to understand Jesus was talking about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem AND the end of the age. Right now we are seeing all the signs being fulfilled. It's pretty hard to miss it.


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Nigel Holland

 2020/8/18 18:33Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5588
NC, USA

 Re:

Nigel-

What signs are you referencing from Luke 21 that you see happening today?

Also, coming on the clouds in judgment is a common motif in the OT. Jesus came in judgment at Jerusalem in 70AD, which as you point out he predicted in the Olivet Discourse. Read about how awful the siege of Jerusalem was. It was not pretty let me assure you. I am NOT saying that the 2d coming was in 70 AD. But Jesus came in judgment at that time nonetheless.

Also reference Mt 26:64, which is a confirmation of Daniel 7:13. “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Matthew 26:64


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Todd

 2020/8/18 19:36Profile
drifter
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Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 691
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

Todd, I say it in love: we've been over this numerous times. Israel becoming a nation in 1948 is one of the surest signs of Jesus' soon return. There have been world wars, race wars, persecution of believers unparalleled in history, increased earthquake activity, more cults than there have ever been, a great number of professed believers falling away. If these things and many more don't convince you, nothing I say will. I believe if a man can't see the times we are living in it's because he doesn't want to see it.

I love you Todd and I don't want to keep debating this with you.


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Nigel Holland

 2020/8/18 21:05Profile
docs
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2193


 Re: Rather listen to Jesus

/The sad thing about the video (and posts by Drifter & Docs) is that it is more peddling of a distorted eschatology built on very hard to interpret scriptures./

36 “Then the king shall do according to HIS own will: HE shall exalt and magnify HIMSELF above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.

37 HE shall regard neither the God of HIS fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for HE shall exalt HIMSELF above them all. (Daniel 11:36-37)

These two sets of scripture, Daniel 11:36-37 and II Thessalonians 2:3-5, don't seem that hard to synchronize and interpret in my opinion. Paul knew ehere to go to make his references to the personal Antichrist.

3  Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the MAN of sin is revealed, the SON of perdition,

4  who opposes and exalts HIMSELF above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that HE sits as God in the temple of God, showing HIMSELF that HE is God.

5  Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? II Thessalonians 2:3-5)

It's a singular PERSON Paul is speaking of. His base reference is Daniel 11:36-37.

/Please leave Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation and Zechariah for a while and start with what our Lord taught us.
He taught us that He will resurrect us on the last day, not 7 or 3 and a half years earlier.

John 6:40. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."/

I couldn't agree with you more. To me, the last day means the last day. Not seven or three and a half years or so before the end of the age. My experience, for what it may be worth (probably not a lot), has been that those who believe in a millennium are many times automatically seen as holding a pre-tribulation rapture view. It's not really the case because many who believe in a millennium do not hold to the pre-trib view.

Job spoke of His Redeemer standing at the last day. Job 19:25.

Isaiah was shown his own personal resurrection would be after Israel's final deliverance at the end of the age, at the last day. Isaiah 26:19.

Daniel was told told his personal resurrection would be at the end of the days - “But you, go your way, till the end; for you shall rest, and will rise to your inheritance at the end of the days.” (Daniel 12:13) To my understanding, this means Daniel will rise at the end of the age at the last day and not seven or three and a half years before. I couldn't be more with you on this matter.

Paul said we shall ALL BE CHANGED at the last trumpet (I Cor 15:51-52). ALL Old and New Testament saints will be raised and glorified together at the last trumpet. It's a twist of scripture to say one group will be changed and glorified and then another group will be changed and glorified seven or three and a hallf years later. It isn't rational or logical and flies oin thje face of scripture We shall ALL BE CHANGED at the same time. One cannot have a last trumpet seven or three and a half years before the end of the age and then another last trumpet at the end of the age when Christ returns. How can a trumpet legitimately be called the last trumpet if seven or so years later it is to be followed by another last trumpet? The pre-trib view has no answer for this except only to say there can be more than one last trumpet which is a contradiction within itself.


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David Winter

 2020/8/19 9:02Profile





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