While I can understand the desire to see God's mercy and forgiveness in the way you see it Jade, I sincerely believe your efforts are misguided and unfounded.

You have alleged that God does not destroy wicked "men", but the wickedness IN men so that they may ultimately be saved. You believe that His wrath is poured out upon their works, not for their destruction but for their salvation.

Paul warned believers about this very matter.

Ephesians 5
For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them

Notice that God's wrath does not come upon the sins, but upon "the sons" of disobedience.

Furthermore in II Thessalonians 1, Paul wrote that the wrath of God comes upon men, not simply their sins

since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power

The grammar is clear, that vengeance is upon "those" (men) who do not know God. They (these men who do not know God) will be punished with everlasting destruction.

You are in danger of turning destruction into salvation so that you can work out every man being saved. This is a serious twisting of scripture and Paul warns that when men do this, they do so to their own harm.

If you twist the meaning of everlasting destruction into a means through which men are ultimately saved, then what
can everlasting salvation mean?

Your motive may be good and sincere, but your method is spurious and dangerous.

mak

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Alan and Dina Martin

Hey Mak- just wanted to check on how you define “destruction.”

TK

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Todd

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Jade

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Jade

Hi Todd,

The word Paul uses in II Thessalonians is

ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

This definition is copied from Bible Hub, a site that is a good source for such questions.

Mak

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Alan and Dina Martin

Thx Mak.

Is this part:// “ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing”// someone’s interpretation or is that an absolute fact regarding the Greek word? The reason I ask is that I have read or heard somewhere that this word can mean either ruination or total annihilation. I am not a Greek expert.

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Todd

Todd,

Bible Hub is a free website with an excellent Greek and Hebrew content.

There is an interlinear section where the strong number is posted above the Greek word, which is posted above the English word.

By clicking on the Strong number, you are given definitions taken from scholars, along with verses that the word also appears in.

I have found it a very helpful resource when attempting to ascertain the basic meaning.

I am not a Greek expert either, but I am grateful for the many men who devoted their lives to provide us detailed information that we may not otherwise have access to. I have been fortunate to make good use of many of these resources for a number of years, and I am so grateful for the help they have been to me.


mak

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Alan and Dina Martin

Jade, thank you for your candid acknowledgment

The only rational, logical conclusion to your position is that those who have been cast into the lake of fire will receive another opportunity to be saved.

At least your view has come into the light to be examined.

Please consider the ramifications of this position. This removes salvation by grace through faith.

This removes any eternal consequence for unbelief.

This removes the truth of eternal punishment.

This proposes a doctrine similar to purgatory - that suffering the lake of fire after death is really only for the purpose of temporal punishment leading to the ultimate salvation of the soul.

I do not hesitate to call this heretical - a teaching that has arisen out of your own personal choice.

mak

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Alan and Dina Martin

Mak,

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Jade

Dear Jade,

This statement is disingenuous at best: you wrote

Heretics, of course, are those who disagree with you. And of course, only your own theology is truth.

I am certain that you are already very aware that your interpretation is unique, although that in itself does not make it wrong. You show confidence, which I admire to put forth your views on this forum; in fact, you voluntarily joined this thread and interjected your own thoughts.

Please do not take offense at the term "heretical". The basic meaning of heresy is "to choose". I do not hesitate to call the teaching that there is a second opportunity to be saved by grace through faith after being thrown into the lake of fire - "heretical." - Heresy means a "choice", and you have made the choice to interpret certain passages according to your personal understanding and assimilate them together.

It is already well understood, by yourself and others, that thousands of men and women of God, over hundreds of years, have studied the same passages you quote and interpreted them differently. Certainly this fact has not escaped you. That is why I admire your confidence to share openly. I am certainly not the first to have called this teaching heretical, many men and women more qualified than I would not hesitate to do so still.

This is a public forum, where discussion may lead to disagreement. You are free to believe what you wrote - "The difference between us is that I believe in the greatness of God’s love and compassion and will and power to save all men, but you don’t"

But the open minded reader who has followed this thread can look back and see that what originally moved me to post was the glimpse into God's heart to spare and to show mercy.

As you have said, we will all stand before the Lord to give account for ourselves, nothing is hidden from the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. Like Paul, I can say that I am not aware of anything against myself, but that does not make me innocent, it is the Lord who judges me. But knowing that He is the judge with the ability and authority to judge righteously, it matters very little to me to be criticized by lesser authority. The support of friends does not prove one right, and the opposition of anyone contrary does not prove one wrong.

I thank you for the opportunity to discuss these topics on the forum. I will leave you to the compassion and mercy of God, but I do so aware of His own warning about adding to or taking away from what He has spoken.

If you are correct, I have nothing to fear anyway.

mak

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Alan and Dina Martin