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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : The Second Coming of Christ by Zac Poonen

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staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1510


 Re:

Hi Sree,
I am not talking pre and post trip in essense.All I am saying in that regard is that those verses Zac Poonen cant be used to argue for a Post Tribualtion in the way he says .

I am pointing out that Jesus delibrately pointed out by using two similar bible verses
Noah Everything was normal ,Then the good guys were taken out and then immediate Judgement
Lot Everything was Normal (Sin was rampant) The the good guys were taken out ,then immediate judgement

I am delibrately not mentioning the other themes of Noah and Lot because Jesus didnt.
I understand quite well that in Lots list their was no "giving in Marriage" because of rampant homosexuality etc.

I am only pointing out what Jesus took out of the bible verses that were important to understand the end.

Yet their are people who want their cake and eat it like Zac Poonen,who are saying yes the Great Tribulation is the worst time in history,it is terrible etc but also its wont have any effect on the world because we will be still eating and drinking and sowing and marrying and it will still be prosperous etc .You cant have it both ways .Zac is good at certain subjects but not the end times,staff

 2020/5/27 12:39Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1758


 Re:

Quote:

I am delibrately not mentioning the other themes of Noah and Lot because Jesus didnt.



That is the point which you are missing. Why do you think Jesus missed the obvious traits of the time of Noah and Lot. This means he was not talking about the nature of the time, but the surprise element in the coming of Judgment.

Jesus did not mention those verses to mean that the times of Noah and Lot were normal times. In fact, I never even thought he mentioned it until you bring the point. To a casual reader of those verses who knows the background of Noah and Lots time, will not even in wildest imagination think that Jesus meant that the times of Noah and Lot were normal. It was not normal.

So if you see that Jesus did not mention that the times were normal then the entire scriptures will make sense. You will be able to see no contradiction in any verse like 'immediately after tribulation' etc. You will find no contradiction in what Brother Zac says as well.


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Sreeram

 2020/5/27 13:36Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5502
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 Re:

If you take out a literal 7 year trib period any problem disappears.


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Todd

 2020/5/27 13:57Profile
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1510


 Re:

Hi Sree,
Ah now Sree you are grasping at straws.You are literally saying that Jesus wasnt pointing out the obvious connection between the the two stories:
1 All the life was carrying on like planting and sowing
2 The good guy were taken to safety
3 immediate judgement(until the day)
but that Jesus was relying on the fact that everyone would know the other issues without him saying!

Eating ,Drinking ,planting,sowing ,marrying ,building .Which one of these is not a normal life activity?Jesus was pointing out that the people were carrying on with life.
If the tribulation was right before this scripture then these activities either would not be going on OR The Great Tribulation isnt a difficult time at all.Its one or the other it cant be both.Zac Poonen makes statements without any underestanding of end times in my opinion,staff

 2020/5/27 16:30Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5502
NC, USA

 Re:

Hey Staff-

It would be exceedingly helpful if you would lay out what it would "look like" given your view of things.

I *think* you are saying this:

1) Everything is "normal"- i.e eating drinking marrying (Mt. 24:38).

2) The rapture occurs (Mt. 24:39)

3) The Great Tribulation begins.

I think you are saying that the rapture can't be post-trib because per above verses Jesus comes while everything is "normal," and things can't be normal during the Great Trib.

However, from the parallel passage in Lk. 17:37 it is clear that Jesus is not talking about a rapture of believers in the Mt. verses; he is talking about a judgment falling that kills men, not rapture them to heaven. Specifically, from Lk 17:

28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”

37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”


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Todd

 2020/5/27 17:45Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1758


 Re:

Staff, the obvious connection between the 2 stories are these,
1. 2 people doing the activities listed by Jesus along with the people of their time, yet were ready for Judgment.
2. The people of their time being caught up with activities and taken by surprise.

The activities themselves are nothing special, these were being carried about by men from the time of creation. To say that Jesus specifically mentioned them as a sign of end time is beyond any logic! The reason Jesus mentioned those activities is to show that even though Noah and Lot performed the same activities, they were not carried away by them but were ready for judgment. The focus is not on the activities but readiness.

If one has to interpret scriptures the way you do, then they should assume that the coming of Jesus will be when there is no electricity because, in the parable of 10 virgins, Jesus spoke about lighting Oil Lamps. If Electricity was available then there should be no need for oil lamps. Since Jesus said, Lamps are needed, it should be a time when Electricity stops existing. I hope you have not gone that far :).



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Sreeram

 2020/5/27 17:54Profile
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1510


 Re:

Hi Sree.
You see the gymnastics a person has to do with Jesus's words to make this the tribulation.You have to say that these activities Jesus actually said were going to be happening prior to Judgement were not exactly what he meant.Even though he highlighted them twice.
Jesus pointed out exactly the activities that will be going on immediately before Judgement and Zac Poonen would have to not take or deny that these activities would be going on immediately before judgement.
The activities are listed twice so that we dont get it wrong.These activities are nothing special they are normal living activities.
The reason as plain as could be why Jesus mentioned these activities is to show that the world will be in blissful ignorance or denial of the coming judgement because all will be the same as it ever was in good times,eating drinking etc.
We cant deny Jesus's words as being literal just to fit our tribulation view.
Again before he comes Jesus points out twice 1 its a time of normal living 2 the good guys have to be taken out or their cant be judgement 3the judgement is immediately after the good guys are safe.

Also Jesus never,never said these activities were "a sign" of the times.How could they be a sign as they go on all the time except when the world is in an extreme flux.You also no well that the 10 virgins is a parable and a sidetrack to the real issue here.
The real issue in its simplist terms is :
Will their be eating ,drinking,planting,sowing ,marrying, normal living activities in The Great Tribulation?
Will the world be in a calm,prosperous place ,a place not worried about Judgement during The Great Tribulation?,staff

 2020/5/27 19:27Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1510


 Re:

Hi TMK
I dont want to get into a long endless discussion about the rapture pre trib or post trib other than to counter the "cake and eat it " sermon by Zac Poonen or section of a sermon.

How can The Great Tribulation be a normal time in the world like what Jesus was saying on the double eating marrying sowing planting when all hell is loose!
or
How can the sun be darkened and the moon not giving off its light and their be planting and sowing and eating and marrying just prior to immediate judgement.I would say that if the Sun was Darkened we would not be pre occupied with any activity except praying and crying.
Even look at the scripture Jesus clearly says no Judgement no sulphur or no flood until the Good guys are out of here .That could mean just protection rather than a rapture but it definitely means no judgement until the day,Who were judged the people of the world .So no judgement for the people of the world until the day!I dont believe you can pick and choose whats literal in these examples of Noah and Lot .If its a literal Judgement ,then its a literal taken to safety and a literal eating and drinking etc too .
staff

 2020/5/27 19:41Profile





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