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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What about those who do not know?

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makrothumia
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Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 724
Texas

 Re:

Normally brother Robert, you make the effort to actually answer questions, and I do the same with you.

You have not attempted to answer my questions and have instead have asked me to respond to yours.

This is disappointing. I will wait to respond to the scriptures you have posted, if and when you make a real attempt to explain what type of knowledge was God seeking to impart when He was actively speaking to Israel through the prophets?

If He had no intention of ever saving them, what repentance was He desiring? What did He want them to hear? What purpose was He trying to get them to repent for?

In your mind, it was not to save them, so please explain in your own words, what all these attempts were to accomplish.

mak


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Alan and Dina Martin

 2020/5/24 18:30Profile
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Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 542
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 Re: Re

I really am trying to answer your questions but I think we are talking past each other. God has always reached out to mankind generally and especially to Jews as His special people. He reached out but they did not all have circumscised hearts. In spite of this general revelation and special revelation, there was a remnant, by His grace, who had hearts to understand and who desired to respond by faith. It was a small group compared to the whole.


Mak, we have gone back and forth on this in other threads. You clearly aren’t persuaded that faith is a gift that all don’t have because all don’t receive. I think Scripture is clear that repentance and faith are a gift from God that not all receive. Faithfulness is a gift of the Spirit and Galatians makes that ultra clear. All God’s children have all the gifts of the Spirit.

If you don’t want to give meaning to the Scriptures that I set forth it’s not a problem. I was afraid this was turning into a sparring match and that isn’t
a good thing.


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Robert

 2020/5/24 20:12Profile
makrothumia
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Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 724
Texas

 Re:

We do agree that men can refuse what God offers, and that without His offer, there is nothing to respond to.

The answer to every scripture you have posted is so simple, God offered and men responded in faith. When men respond in faith to God's grace, His desire is born in their lives, whether it be salvation, repentance, understanding, or any other of the many forms of mercy He offers to men.

I have very carefully considered the implication of your position that God does not offer the ultimate gift of repentance unto life except to the elect. Your position is that their receiving of the gift reveals that they were the elect of God.

I am asking you to explain the instances where men refuse what God is seeking to do in their life. I know you believe men can refuse, but do I understand correctly, that you do not believe those who refuse were offered the same repentance unto life that men who received it were offered?

Do you understand my concern, am I understanding you correctly. I am not asking if you agree that men have refused God's general revelation. I am asking if men have ever refused His offer of repentance unto life?

How can I be more clear? The prophets pleaded with the people who never responded. Are you saying, that everything God was speaking to those who refused to repent was "less than the gift of repentance unto life?"

This is where I lose your logic. I have asked you to explain it yourself, but you simply return to the presenting your understanding that men respond because God offered them the "full" repentance grace. All the others who God pleaded with and did not respond, never had the same equal offer although it seemed that God was attempting to show them something.

Is this not a fair representation of your position?

mak


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Alan and Dina Martin

 2020/5/24 20:27Profile
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 Re:

Hi Mak. My personal opinion or position doesn’t matter. Let’s just let the Scripture given by you and me speak by the Spirit to those who were interested and leave it to the Lord. Thanks for the interaction.


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Robert

 2020/5/25 7:14Profile
makrothumia
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Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 724
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 Re:

Then for the sake of other readers;

God wills all men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth
ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν (note - God wills - θέλει)

Same author Paul, same root word θέλει but as a noun in I Thessalonians 4:3
τοῦτο γάρ ἐστιν θέλημα τοῦ θεοῦ, ὁ ἁγιασμὸς ὑμῶν
This is the will of God, your sanctification

Same author, Paul, same word, "to will". Paul does not have two different meanings of the same word in his mind.
Paul warns against men who "twist" the scriptures. Making two different meanings out of the very same word is twisting the scriptures.


Concerning this "will" θέλει of God, Paul says if anyone rejects this, he is not rejecting man, but God.

I do not believe my brothers would dare reject the fact that God wills θέλει for the Thessalonians to be sanctified. How then can they call into question that God wills θέλει all men to be saved?

The only way to make two different meanings out of the very same word, deliberately chosen by the writer, is to twist the text into the meaning that is preferred.

If God will for the believers in Thessalonica to be sanctified, then God wills for all men to be saved. God's will in both passages means the same thing.

mak





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Alan and Dina Martin

 2020/5/25 8:04Profile
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 Re:

Thanks Mak. This response though is what I’m talking about. You said God through Paul doesn’t have two different definitions of the same word “will”. That is a conclusion on your part. I copied this from Thayer after your post where Scripture disgrees with your own conclusory statement.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2307: θέλημα
θέλημα, θελήματος, τό (θέλω), a word purely Biblical and ecclesiastical (yet found in Aristotle, de plant. 1, 1, p. 815b, 21); the Sept. for חֵפֶץ and רָצון; will, i. e.,
a. what one wishes or has determined shall be done (i. e. objectively, thing willed): Luke 12:47; John 5:30; 1 Corinthians 7:37; 1 Thessalonians 5:18; 2 Timothy 2:26; Hebrews 10:10; Revelation 4:11; θέλημα τοῦ Θεοῦ is used — of the purpose of God to bless mankind through Christ, Acts 22:14; Ephesians 1:9; Colossians 1:9; of what God wishes to be done by us, Romans 12:2; Colossians 4:12 (Winer's Grammar, 111 (105)); 1 Peter 4:2; and simply τό θέλημα, Romans 2:18 (Winer's Grammar, 594 (553)) (Sir. 43:16 (17) (but here the better text now adds αὐτοῦ, see Fritzsche; in patristic Greek, however, θέλημα is so used even without the article; cf. Ignatius ad Rom. 1, 1 [ET]; ad Eph. 20, 1 [ET], etc.)); τοῦ κυρίου, Ephesians 5:17; plural commands, precepts: (Mark 3:35 WH. marginal reading); Acts 13:22 (Psalm 102:7 (Ps. 103:7); 2 Macc. 1:3); ἐστι τό θέλημα τίνος, followed by ἵνα, John 6:39; 1 Corinthians 16:12, cf. Matthew 18:14; followed by an infinitive, 1 Peter 2:15; by an accusative with an infinitive 1 Thessalonians 4:3. (Cf. Buttmann, 237 (204); 240 (207); Winers Grammar, § 44, 8.)
b. equivalent to τό θέλειν (i. e. the abstract act of willing, the subjective) will, choice: 1 Peter 3:17 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 604 (562)); 2 Peter 1:21; ποιεῖν τό θέλημα τίνος (especially of God), Matthew 7:21; Matthew 12:50; Matthew 21:31; Mark 3:35 (here WH marginal reading the plural, see above); John 4:34; John 6:38; John 7:17; John 9:31; Ephesians 6:6; Hebrews 10:7, 9, 36; Hebrews 13:21; 1 John 2:17; τό θέλημα (L T Tr WH βούλημα) τίνος κατεργάζεσθαι, 1 Peter 4:3; γίνεται τό θέλημα τίνος, Matthew 6:10; Matthew 26:42; Luke 11:2 L R; Luke 22:42; Acts 21:14; ἡ βουλή τοῦ θελήματος, Ephesians 1:11; ἡ εὐδοκία τοῦ θελήματος Ephesians 1:5; ἐν τῷ θελημάτω τοῦ Θεοῦ, if God will, Romans 1:10; διά θελήματος Θεοῦ, Romans 15:32; 1 Corinthians 1:1; 2 Corinthians 1:1; 2 Corinthians 8:5; Ephesians 1:1; Colossians 1:1; 2 Timothy 1:1; κατά τό θέλημα τοῦ Θεοῦ, Galatians 1:4; (1 Peter 4:19); 1 John 5:14. equivalent to pleasure: Luke 23:25; equivalent to inclination, desire: σαρκός, ἀνδρός, John 1:13; plural Ephesians 2:3. (Synonym: see θέλω, at the end.)


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Robert

 2020/5/25 8:25Profile
makrothumia
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Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 724
Texas

 Re:

I invite you to show me from what you just posted what disagrees with me.

Please just copy and paste the section that you believe contradicts what I wrote. I just read through the Thayer post and failed to see it.

Please point it out to me.

mak


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Alan and Dina Martin

 2020/5/25 9:38Profile
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Joined: 2017/2/12
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 Re:

There is a will of command where God declares something should be done.

There is a will of decree where God declares or decrees something shall absolutely come to pass.


There is a will of choice where God seeks or asks for a response from us.


There is a will of desire or preference.

But again, even all expositors would have to inject their own view of each situation or verse where the Scripture uses this word in order to give which of these possible meanings they want or understand to be applicable.

Mak. I see your frustration with me so I want to beg out. I probably should have done it earlier. Thanks.


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Robert

 2020/5/25 10:32Profile





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