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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Where God's proactive effort and man's response meet

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rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Prov.1:20,

"Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth he voice in the streets:"

Christ laments

Matthew 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Paul speaks of Christ in this way...

1 Corinthians 1:30
"But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God-and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption-"


From the moment Adam chose to eat from the tree of knowledge of both good and evil, God through Christ has extended mercy to His creation. Mercy to all in that, the wisdom of God cries out,

Proverbs 1:23

"Turn at my rebuke; Surely I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you,"

For all are guilty no not one is righteous.

But:

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And, that the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world...has become for us the wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification
and redemption.

Wisdom is learned and those who acquire this wisdom, will experience the ancient path, the light of life, and be known by the Sent One.


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2020/5/16 14:53Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5483
NC, USA

 Re:

//Today, people who have never heard of Christ can come to know Him if they respond positively to the light they have. We hear of many testimonies of people in different countries getting the gospel via different means (a missionary, a gospel tract, a vision, etc.) after they respond positively to God’s general revelation.//

A child is born in squalor and poverty in a slum in New Delhi. He grows up knowing only Hinduism and his days are spent scrounging in dumps etc to find a few scraps of food for he and his siblings to eat. This is his daily existence until he dies at age 14 after being struck by a vehicle in the street.

There are countless thousands in various parts of the world just like him.

I only bring up this little vignette to demonstrate that it is very easy to say that everyone has an equal chance to respond to an unknown gospel, but in reality it’s a bunch of rubbish.


_________________
Todd

 2020/5/16 19:39Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2093
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Todd wrote:

Quote:
A child is born in squalor and poverty in a slum in New Delhi. He grows up knowing only Hinduism and his days are spent scrounging in dumps etc to find a few scraps of food for he and his siblings to eat. This is his daily existence until he dies at age 14 after being struck by a vehicle in the street.

There are countless thousands in various parts of the world just like him.

I only bring up this little vignette to demonstrate that it is very easy to say that everyone has an equal chance to respond to an unknown gospel, but in reality it’s a bunch of rubbish.


If you haven't listened to Ten Shekels and a Shirt by Paris Reidhead I highly recommend it as it addresses the issue of "the poor heathen who've never heard the gospel."

I believe there is such a thing as an age of accountability and I believe 14 yrs old is past that age. Therefore that young man would be held accountable and punished for the multitude of his sins against God and against the light he inherently had, if he did not seek the true God in sincere repentance and faith before he died. If he clung to his Hindu idol/s till his dying breath he'd have no one to blame but himself.


_________________
Oracio

 2020/5/17 0:02Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5483
NC, USA

 Re:

//If he clung to his Hindu idol/s till his dying breath he'd have no one to blame but himself.//

Haha- how would he know they were idols?

Let’s just say I’m glad God is the one doing the deciding. Of course I don’t have the nasty view of God that some folks cling to for dear life.


_________________
Todd

 2020/5/17 8:02Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 487
Cambodia

 Re:

There are two kinds of people in the world who will suffer the wrath of God. Those who reject God revealed in the Gospel and those who reject God revealed in nature. They both are already under wrath because they suppress the truth about what can be known about God. Not that they don't know. They reject. Why, because they love their evil. This view of sinful mankind is God's view of sinful mankind. Who is sinful mankind? Those who reject God as He has mercifully revealed Himself so that they could give Him thanks and give Him glory. They are now under wrath ( condemnation, anger, fury, judgement), yet He reaches out for a time with mercy.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God." - John 3:16-21

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. - Romans 1:18-20

One thing many have difficulty with is accepting the utter sinfulness of mankind and yet having God's love in their heart that causes them to love that person anyway. It's more than humility that does this. It's having God's love shed abroad in your heart. When you can have someone hate you violently for bringing them the Gospel of mercy and yet love them anyway, that is when your heart matches with God's.

I want to add this. We can love the idea of mercy to mankind because we can think there is something inherently good in man, or we can love mercy because there is nothing good in mankind but something so praiseworthy in the mercy and goodness of God towards completely undeserving mankind. This may seem obvious but there seems to be a dividing line in Christendom between God being merciful because of the good in man and God being merciful solely because of the goodness in God.



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Robert

 2020/5/17 8:30Profile
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 670
Texas

 Re:

Thanks Robert,

Can I add a WHY men are sinful?

When Paul discovered the “law of sin” in his members producing all kinds of evil desires within him and making him do what he did not want to do and hindered him from doing what he agreed with the Law was good to do,
He was able to say this - “IT IS NO LONGER I - but SIN in Me”.

The only thing valuable in men is that they have been made in the image and likeness of God. SIN entering the world has corrupted that original image and likeness. Men sin because of SIN in the flesh. This is why the Law was weak and unable to establish righteousness.

The good news of Jesus Christ is that He has both power and mercy to overcome SIN in the flesh. We can preach the good news that men can become united with Christ in His death to SIN and be freed from slavery to the law of sin and death. The old man (under bondage to SIN) will be rendered inoperative and the spirit of life in Jesus Christ will create a NEW man created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Men are evil BECAUSE OF SIN. Christ came to set men free from slavery to SIN. Judgment will come not because men are “sinners” - it will come because they refuse the offer of pardon and release through Jesus Christ.

Mak


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Alan and Dina Martin

 2020/5/17 9:43Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 487
Cambodia

 Re:

Mak, you are right that Scripture says men are slaves to sin. Do you also agree that Scripture says that men are sinners because they have a nature that loves or desires sin?

Your response might lead some to think that men are sinners because of forced servitude. I think the John 19-21 verses clearly establish that man refuses to come to God because they love sin. Am I misreading your response or what the John verses say? Man's conscience may strive against sin but his evil desires are willing participants or so Scripture seems to say.


_________________
Robert

 2020/5/17 10:04Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2093
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Haha- how would he know they were idols?

Let’s just say I’m glad God is the one doing the deciding. Of course I don’t have the nasty view of God that some folks cling to for dear life.


Hi Todd, not sure if you saw Fletcher's post in the thread about those who've never heard. It was about a monk who separated himself from Buddhism and his whole community in order to seek the true and living God, and about how God revealed His name to him through a missionary. Very encouraging account. It lines up with the truth of God's Word that God condemns idolaters and their idolatry and holds them accountable and without excuse regardless of whether or not they ever hear the gospel.


_________________
Oracio

 2020/5/17 12:11Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Todd wrote:

"I only bring up this little vignette to demonstrate that it is very easy to say that everyone has an equal chance to respond to an unknown gospel, but in reality it's a bunch of rubbish."


Colossians 1:15-17

"He is the image of the invisible God , the firstborn one all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.


Todd, if one says that Christ does not reveal to creation that He exists, is Christ responsible for those who you believe do not have an "equal" chance to be saved? In other words, are you saying that Christ depends on man to preach the Gospel?


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2020/5/17 12:15Profile
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 670
Texas

 Re:

Thanks for the question Robert. It is worthy of clarification. We are both victims of SIN entering the world and accomplices for cooperating with SIN.

Romans 6 makes this clear - “Just as you used to offer your members in slavery to sin , so now offer your members in slavery to righteousness.”

Discovering that it is not “I” but “SIN” in me still leaves me the wretched man. But, it helped Paul understand SIN in his members. I have found that this helps sinners who are wrestling like Paul with the contradictions of their stated purpose and their actions.

God is willing to forgive our cooperation with SIN, but He is unwilling to give our lack of cooperation with His Spirit.

Mak


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2020/5/17 12:52Profile





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