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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Where God's proactive effort and man's response meet

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makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 670
Texas

 Re:

Thanks Robert,

I will ponder that with you and if you have any insight now or receive any, please share it with me. I look forward to searching out the matter with you.

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter and the glory of kings to SEARCH IT OUT!

mak


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2020/5/13 14:33Profile
CofG
Member



Joined: 2017/2/12
Posts: 487
Cambodia

 Re:

I have one thought. Not sure it is an insight. How will they believe if they have not heard and how will they hear if someone doesn't preach and how will someone preach if he isn't sent?

Just as today, there are many, many millions that God has said he desires that they repent.

So, you are left with three choices. Either God has direct revelation to millions without a human preacher. Second, the reason many haven't heard is the fault of God's people. Or, third, God has not intended to grant some, or many, the mercy that He has granted to others.

This is the big elephant in the theological room. It always seems to come down to this when God's people attempt to peer into the mystery.

I'm not trying to start a discussion about the character of God or God's people. I'm just trying to state the conundrum. I realize none of those choices is a good one in the sincere hearts of many.


_________________
Robert

 2020/5/13 17:30Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1390
Dothan, Alabama

 Re:

Quote;
[ I have one thought. Not sure it is an insight. How will they believe if they have not heard and how will they hear if someone doesn't preach and how will someone preach if he isn't sent? ]

Romans 2:14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts,

Luke 10:29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”




_________________
Fletcher

 2020/5/13 19:16Profile
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 670
Texas

 Re:

I believe it is safe to allow what has clearly been stated to set the parameters for concluding matters that have not been fully revealed.

For example: This statement establishes the reason for God rejecting His own called, and chosen people.

ὅτι εἵλοντο τὸν θάνατον ἢ τὴν ζωήν - "because THEY CHOSE death rather than life"

Here, beyond any doubt, it was THEIR CHOICE -not God's.

The testimony of the prophets establishes this over and over again. A people who become "unhearing", who "stiffen their necks" so as "not to receive correction", who "thrust away" the covenant God made with them and "turn their backs" to God - bring about their own destruction.

God "repays" them according to their deeds. His judgments are righteous. Heaven and earth are His witnesses to every attempt He makes to turn men towards Himself.

Solomon was inspired by God to write - "a man who remains stiff-necked after MANY REPROOFS will suddenly be destroyed without remedy."

Why are men destroyed and not saved? Should not what has been clearly stated guide us in our questions about those who in our minds have not heard or had opportunity?

mak


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2020/5/14 7:25Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:


Pro 1:20

Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:

Pro 1:21

She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,

Pro 1:22

How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

Pro 1:23

Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.


Look to this promise, "I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you."

Who is the "Wisdom of God?"


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2020/5/14 8:46Profile
Elibeth
Member



Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 1075


 Re:

Re:Rookie,...
Scripture given,

Prov.1:20,
“Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets”

Then you ask:
“Who is the "Wisdom of God?"
...............
Yes,.. I would say that *wisdom is The Spirit of The Living God.
....The One that calls to us on our *path, .. our walk, ,... guiding us by His Spirit..... God , who is The Word and The Spirit of That Word.
.............
elizabeth

 2020/5/14 11:01Profile
Elibeth
Member



Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 1075


 Re:

Again,.. as to thinking on Alan’s post about Gods mercy and tying it together with the Scripture that Jeff offered.
................
Re:Jeff,

Prov.1:20,
“Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:”
..............
Thinking on how The Lord,...The Spirit of The Living God,does cry in
our streets,.. where we walk,.. to *turn us to His *wisdom,.. to His Way,.. ..
..... how He, in His infinite wisdom see’s Life and Godliness.

Would that be His Grace, calling, and a mercy ?

Even His judgments are a mercy....?
——————-
Hope I am not spoiling the subject that you all are so graciously having.

——————
elizabeth





 2020/5/14 17:59Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Hi Sister Elizabeth,

I was touched by Mak's original post. In his study of the Scriptures, I saw someone who is drilling down into the meat of the words of God. He is discovering what has been from the days of Adam. Mak's thoughts reminded me of Michelangelo's painting of "The Creation of Adam." What Mak is revealing is how I view the touching of God to man. The Scripures I injected were posted to highlight what Mak is writing of.

In Michelangelo's painting, God is actively reaching out to Adam who is passively receiving what God is working out. The point of where God and man touch in the painting, to me, is where "wisdom" is birth in Adam.

The Holy Spirit is God's power to convey wisdom to man. Wisdom is the substance that Paul writes of in his definition of faith. This substance is what creates the hope in those who receive God's wisdom.


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2020/5/15 7:12Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2093
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
I have one thought. Not sure it is an insight. How will they believe if they have not heard and how will they hear if someone doesn't preach and how will someone preach if he isn't sent?

Just as today, there are many, many millions that God has said he desires that they repent.

So, you are left with three choices. Either God has direct revelation to millions without a human preacher. Second, the reason many haven't heard is the fault of God's people. Or, third, God has not intended to grant some, or many, the mercy that He has granted to others.

This is the big elephant in the theological room. It always seems to come down to this when God's people attempt to peer into the mystery.

I'm not trying to start a discussion about the character of God or God's people. I'm just trying to state the conundrum. I realize none of those choices is a good one in the sincere hearts of many.



A couple thoughts came to mind. In Romans 10:18 Paul goes on to say,

“But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: “Their sound has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.”

Paul is quoting Psalm 19:4 there. Psalm 19:1-6 says,

“The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows His handiwork. 2 Day unto day utters speech, and night unto night reveals knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard. 4 Their line has gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them He has set a tabernacle for the sun, 5 which is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoices like a strong man to run its race. 6 Its rising is from one end of heaven, and its circuit to the other end; and there is nothing hidden from its heat.”

In Romans 10:18 Paul is comparing the extent of the preaching of Christ via His preachers with the extent of the preaching of God’s eternal power and Godhead via the celestial bodies. In other words, just like God has always used the celestial bodies to declare His glory He has now been using his preachers to declare the Gospel of Christ to all people.

From Psalm 19 and many other passages throughout Scripture, I believe we can deduce that God has always sufficiently revealed His glory to all people throughout all time. Granted, that general revelation and the acknowledgment of it has not been sufficient to save people. But it has been a means of God’s “drawing” of people nonetheless. It has always been up to sinners (both Jew and Gentile) how they respond to that “light.” The Spirit of God has been “striving” with the unbelieving world in different ways throughout the history of mankind.

In Noah’s time the message of salvation via repentance and faith in the true God went out to the whole world and almost all perished without excuse in their rejection of that message.

The same can be said of Gentile nations throughout history. They have always had enough light to draw them closer to God, but most have chosen to remain in their darkness. Some have responded positively to God’s dealings with them and God has been merciful and faithful to reveal Himself to them. We see that throughout the Old Testament as well as the New. Think of Nineveh for example in the time of Jonah. They could have avoided God getting so provoked to anger by them, they could have avoided God forcefully sending reluctant Jonah to them if they would have repented beforehand. If they would have responded positively to God’s general revelation beforehand God would have revealed Himself to them one way or another.

Today, people who have never heard of Christ can come to know Him if they respond positively to the light they have. We hear of many testimonies of people in different countries getting the gospel via different means (a missionary, a gospel tract, a vision, etc.) after they respond positively to God’s general revelation.


_________________
Oracio

 2020/5/15 13:02Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Brother Oracio is right on with his reflection. The God of the OT, according to Scripture, has not limited His mercy and grace to only Israel. Just think about the grace extended to Egypt... Scripture repeatedly mentions Egypt in the end times as a nation saved by God.

Often times it is we who put restraints on how God saves.


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2020/5/16 11:47Profile





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