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KervinM
Member



Joined: 2019/1/15
Posts: 38
South Africa

 Re:

@Savannah: I also dispair that the case may be otherwise. For which my prayer, through Christ, is that God vindicates his name and give grace to as many of his own that may be left stranded due this compromised healthcare system at any time (the woe of Godless rulers - sigh).

@Marvin: The hope was for just in case I was unaware of some facts that renders uncovering in a medical ward excepted/permissible before God. Which would then hopefully alter the state of my conscience with regard to the matter - just as it is with every matter we suddenly realize we have had a misapprehension of. But as stated above, I indeed dispair that the matter may be any different to what I had previously understood it to be.

And I trust you will agree with me that there exist many practices that have been nomative for years that are plain abominable before God. This then must suggest that normativity is not a safe standard to measure Christian virtues against. I am also convinced that literal widwifery was once nomative (even amongst the heathens because our very nature asserts to this) - until succeeded by 'midwive-by-proffession' comprising of indivuduals of both genders. How this transition came about should be the same way any other vile transition occur in this world. But Christians should indeed not blindly 'comform to customs of the present age' but weigh all things against the Holy Scriptures (God's revealed truth).


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Kervin

 2020/5/8 8:24Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1162
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Kervin:

I think before you believe yourself to have found the whole health care profession a bunch of compromisers and lusters, I would check my audacity at the door.

Because you find a check of conscience in yourself and Savannah happily gives you a blanket statement to validate your beliefs, you really should question yourself rather than everyone else, the multiplied thousands of Christians who have gone into Doctoring or Nursing by the plan and will of God according to their own consciences. Yes I said conscience because the word of God does not specify work profession by name for each individual.

Do you know better than they themselves? Have you found a few verses to undo the role of Doctor and nurse because your conscience cannot undress in front of the opposite gender?
Maybe you've not heard of the massive push towards homosexuality in our country? Maybe gender issues, transexualism and lesbianism have escaped you. Let me say first, these sins find their way into the medical profession as well, boy scouts, girl scouts, anywhere traditional gender roles have been normative, they are now invaded by sodomites.

In short you may think yourself safe, but maybe you are not at all safe from the causation to lust in another and that of the same sex which your conscience validates as the 'only' biblical route for medical care.

Rounding up a few proof texts against lust and non-conformity is really self-serving bible reading and it shows in its condemnation of vast multitudes of others who have served God faithfully in those professions...and don't consider themselves compromisers or lusters or sinful because their calling and service is something you cannot do yourself.

As I told you earlier, if conscience is not enough, then your flesh will find legalism and false accusation better suited to call everyone else who is not of your opinion "compromisers", "ungodly", "and misapprehended their understanding of health care".

It is a fallacy to think that because someone in the health care profession might lust, that a blanket condemnation of their profession as "compromisers" is due to them. Because pastors have put their hands in the money pot, should we forsake them as well? The same simplistic thinking that condemns one, condemns the other profession as well.

I am making no argument for going against your conscience in this situation, I am saying your conscience is no one elses rule even if you can get a few amens from those who would agree with your summation of Doctors and Nurses.


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Marvin

 2020/5/8 13:41Profile
KervinM
Member



Joined: 2019/1/15
Posts: 38
South Africa

 Re:

I do not mean to accuse you of forgetting but do please allow me to emphasize that I am happy to be convinced otherwise if my position is indeed off. But so far I feel there has not been enough support to warrant the contrary view on the matter.

For example, I do not think God would hold me accountable if a male provider (who is homosexual) lust over me as I feel there is no neglect on my part.

From the little I know about our weak nature around lust (females included), I cannot imagine a Christian provider who does all genders in all uncovering extents to serve even a week without feeling like renouncing either their position or their Christian steadfastness/intergrity and begin to endulge lust.

You shall remember, dear Marvin that Job had to make a covenent with his eyes - and he was not even a physician I understand. And the sin of David and poor Uria's wife is a good account to remember while on lust traps.

While I assert that a pastor who is being unfaithful should be excominicated or forsaken in the worst case, I feel the case at hand is a bit different. For example, my argument is that I do not think there is any ernest Christian provider who (knowing the ruins of sin - including lust) can choose to do both genders in all respects. Therefore my greatest condemnation goes particularly to the Christless providers who are not under the yoke of Christ and therefore must see nothing wrong with lust - and yet doing a great dealing of making the system in question an acceptable norm.

I read of a case hear on SI I think (if not directed herefrom) about a boarding school that had to keep and educate missionary children. One of the last place you would expect to hear of sexual offenses - but many and sad reports of the same evil were heard from the school years after. How much more would those offending men have been motivated to carry out their evil works had the victims been frequetly ill covered if at all before them? A man may be seated alone and get these ideas. How much more if there are strong stimulus present?

My wish as well would indeed be that an honest Christian provider would hereon comment to assert that all these concerns are without grounds and that lust is well managed even in operations that requires most extreme uncovering. But I guess we must own that non of the 450+ thread views so far are from users in the medical field :|


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Kervin

 2020/5/8 16:12Profile
Caleb4life
Member



Joined: 2012/7/22
Posts: 106
Minnesota

 Re:

I love your heart brother Kervin!

FYI - the way I interpret thread views is to divide the number of posts by the view count. In this thread, that number is around “20”.

So I perceive about 20 people have been following this conversation with consistent interest and revisited it to “view” it again with each new post.

All that to say, I suspect there are medical professionals on SI, but perhaps just not in the 20 or so people following this conversation closely?

Anyway, to the topic at hand, I respect the perspective of keeping ones conscience clean with each and every medical encounter, as each person abides in Christ Jesus. After all, the fruit of the Spirit is “self control”, not “others control”.

Love you all!


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Caleb

 2020/5/8 17:12Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2067


 Re: FYI


Kervin,

The following is from a journal of a medical university;


A glimpse into history demonstrates that until very recently, pelvic examinations in women were handled by females, likely to ensure comfort and privacy all the while preventing improper interactions from male counterparts.

The oldest medical text known to man is the "Kahun Gynecological Papyrus", written by the Egyptians around 1800 BCE. The papyrus provides a glance into early gynecological medicine and unveils the traditions of reproduction, conception and delivery in ancient Egypt.

Due to compliance with religious doctrine, men were not allowed to be present at births or at other rituals that dealt with the intimate parts of a woman. Instead, it was the role of the midwife to take care of women and to assist them with their gynecological needs. Interestingly enough, the "Kahun Papyrus" provides some of the earliest evidence of midwifery in history.

Similarly, in the middle ages, it was often the norm for a woman's sexual organs to be examined by midwives, nurses or other females who previously had had similar problems to the patient's. By the early 1800's, with the advent of modern medical degrees and physical examinations, the pelvic exam began to be performed by male physicians, as women were not allowed to enroll in medical school. However, this examination was a variation of the modern version as it consisted of a "compromise" in which the physician kneeled before the woman but did not directly inspect her genitals, only palpated them. In addition, it was during this period that the use of a chaperone became a part of the clinical examination. The chaperone's role was to emotionally support and reassure the patient during a procedure that she found embarrassing or uncomfortable. The chaperone also acted as a witness in cases of malfeasance by the physician. Today, in many parts of the world where religious and cultural precepts often discourage female encounters with male physicians, chaperones still attend gynecological examinations.

By the 1970's, only 9% of enrolled medical students in the United States were women. The numbers have drastically increased since then: now 58% of medical students are women , yet there are still disparities in gender among the specialties. In Obstetrics and Gynecology, female residency enrolment rates have quadrupled from 1978 to the present, leaving men in the minority.

Hence, it is well observed that throughout history and up until recent years, the male role in gynecology has been absent, indirect, or directly overlooked by a third party.

 2020/5/8 20:32Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1436
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: Amen 🙏🏻

Brother Caleb,
That was a very well stated closing remark !
“ After all, the fruit of the Spirit is “self control”, not “others control”.

It registered immediately in my spirit and brought with it the awareness that we are all “naked” before our Father-
Nothing is hidden from Him and there is every reason to rejoice in that.


Brother Kervin,
Your sincerity of heart and the integrity with which you are pursuing this matter of conscience is an example in itself and your love of the truth is very encouraging and I believe that the Lord will honor that 😇

Praying for you to receive the clarity you so earnestly seek 🙏🏻
Because being a witness to His presence is the reality of our common salvation and when we have a dilemma that produces a “crisis of conscience” often our focus will shift away from beholding Him, our first love.
(For me) this has often produced a “Martha” instead of a “Mary”
Where my mind was “busy with many things”.

Looking forward to your input on other subjects as your love for the truth is a blessing to all :)




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Fletcher

 2020/5/9 0:42Profile
KervinM
Member



Joined: 2019/1/15
Posts: 38
South Africa

 Re:

@Caleb: Ah I shortly after realized that I may have been in error on the view counter interpretation and accordingly went back to amend my statement so as to try and accomodate the same possibility. With regard to clean conscience, I can only hope that all who hold the opposite view should still be able to handle medical cases of their own thus with a clean one - in spite all that is set forth here in support to the need for gender matching.

@Savannah: Thank you for your relevent findings - sufficient to fill in (if not settle the matter) while we hopefully wait to see if we might have a contemporary Christian provider thus chiming in to input (amongst others' further input).

It is important to observe how while a champeron may be sufficient for a Christless female pacient (for safeguard against physical assults), a Christian female must remain concern of offending as a male provider may, while thus exposed to a stimulus, silently lust after her in his heart (equivalent to physical act before God I understand) without her or the champeron knowing it. Does not this then mean that this system is not fitted to work for saints - but only the world?

@Fletcher: Thank you for your kind remarks. As noted above, I can only hope that none of the arguments put forth to support the need for gender matching will leave those holding the contrary view doubtful in their conscience when a cup (a medical case) shall be set before them to drink - and that without trampling Christian virtue underfoot. Otherwise, I fear every uncertain heart must make effort to prayerfully meditate on this matter until it can, in good faith, seat comfortably thereon.

P.S: Because one other important factor to note with conscience (particularly in areas where we may be wrong) is that while one may indeed be able to look up to God and say I did not know and did it in a clean conscience, God might look back at you and say you have been in the Christian faith long enough to know this. But you were preocupied with other matters (Marthas) and therefore remained a babe a lot longer than is permissible. And therefore be found blameworthy as it were with the Hebrews. Therefore one must be sure that not only are they doing something in a clean conscience but that they are also not idle but prayerfully and actively seek to come to the fuller knowledge of the will of God. And thereby giving God a continued platform to reveal to them any vile thing that they may be holding onto in good faith unawares. Psalm 139:23-24


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Kervin

 2020/5/9 2:09Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1436
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: brother Kervin

You wrote / Therefore one must be sure that not only are they doing something in a clean conscience but that they are also not idle but prayerfully and actively seek to come to the fuller knowledge of the will of God. And thereby giving God a platform to reveal to them any vile thing that they may be holding onto in good faith unawares. Psalm 139:23-24 /


Yes and Amen!!
And the absolute only way to do this in the New Covenant (not being bewitched like the Galatians) is to abide in Him (His presence) :)))
And the “vile thing” that the Lord reveals is how our view or beliefs have distorted the Truth and ultimately serve a lie, wether this be to our indulgence or an asceticism (which we are also admonished to be mindful of as an entrapment) .... as it can go both ways, which is why brother Calebs summation, really is that.

Just because it’s “true” for one member of the body of Christ doesn’t necessarily mean it is for all... for example the Romans 14 food law and how that is a matter of our own conscience yet we are to take consideration of our brothers conscience as well but not seeking to control or amend it, simply not offend it by our liberty. There are sure aspects of that principle that would apply here or in any matter of conscience.

To be honest I can appreciate your transparency about your bias to believe this as an already decided subject and basically seeking if someone can “best” the arguments you have used to cement yourself in this particular view. However is this the Lords will for His children?? That they should walk around in a perpetual state of anxiety that someone may accidentally glimpse their genitalia (which itself seems an unhealthy preoccupation) and thereby be drawn into lust because we somehow were not restricted enough in our own actions to prevent it while seeking medical attention??
I mean no offense brother but am sincerely asking you if this concern was born in heaven and if so then there’s your answer,... if not then all the confirmations in the world from Savannah citing the traditions and of men to myself coming into concordance with your view would not make it true...
So I’m hoping to suggest the way and means of God bringing His children into a fuller knowledge of His will is primarily (in the New Covenant) the role reserved for the ministry of the Holy Spirit 🙏🏻


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Fletcher

 2020/5/9 8:35Profile
KervinM
Member



Joined: 2019/1/15
Posts: 38
South Africa

 Re:

Thanks for your reply, dear Fletcher. I commented the way I did largely because I fear we may be abusing the 'clean conscience' based liberty here (perhaps it is my misaprehension). Are we saying that a believer who engages in sexual relations for example with his bride-to-be prio to the voiwing day (because he was told it was okay) is justified and may continue to do so simply because he is then doing it in a clean conscience? Do not he instead have to come to know that such is aborminable and should be forsaken? I believe only a handful of Christian observations may apply to certain group and not another - while the rest of them should be standard across all Christedom. And in fact this line of difference 'seems' to be drawn by spiritual maturity rather than the nature or significancy of the doctrine. Else non should perish due to deception as long as they are following their deception in a clean conscience. But no the Bible has several warnings against deception.

No I do not mean to insist that our position be established simply based on supporting information and arguments (you will rememeber I did advise that I was open to both though thus positioned). It's just that currently presented evidence (including scriptural backing) seem to suggest that the inferered conclussion is the case and therefore worthy of acceptance. The Appostles sat around to discuss the matter of circumcission and were happy with the conclussion reached afterwards. More so because they probably trusted that the Holy Spirit was in their midst to guide and enlighten them on the matter. Can I boldly say that this was birthed in haeven? I dare not to say as it was not a devine revelation. But as it seems to have been with the apostles, I would like to take it that this is the conclusion the Holy Spirit is happy to bring us to.

But as addedd on my privious reply, let as many hearts that may be left uncertain given the presented arguments prayerfully look up to the Father throught Christ until set at ease. Then shall no man say: I was driven astray by another. No I do not believe that this is one of the Christian doctirnes of which we may say to apply to one group (of belivers) and not another.
Yes it is infact my prayer too as admonished by the quoted Psalm that God would bring as many of us (that he may find truly open to him and worthy) to clarity accordingly if the inferred conclussion be a miss. I say worthy becuase it appears God does not make it his duty to reveal further truth to any one guilty of failing to observe other obvious and fundamental precepts that they already know.


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Kervin

 2020/5/9 9:57Profile
KervinM
Member



Joined: 2019/1/15
Posts: 38
South Africa

 Re:

I am still a bit weary and was already when I wrote my last reply. May I be forgiven if some parts of it (though written from sincere heart) be crude, unkind, unevangelical or lake coherency. I fear I may also have read dear Fletcher's reply in haste as well. I aim to have another look once refreshed (God willing) and make amends where necessary. I also hope to tell of how enlarged the whole discussion got me - even though my position seems to remain unchanged (including my healtcare access problem). May it be the Lord who is glorified in the end and not man. The Lord's grace abound on as many as love him in truth


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Kervin

 2020/5/9 11:51Profile





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