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Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1756


 Re:

Quote:

Yes we don’t disagree that in the NC the Lord isn’t establishing a covenant with a “preselected” group per say, but rather making an appeal to them to repent and obey by faith the gospel:)
So we can agree that the Lord dies in fact call unbelievers to repent otherwise what’s the point of preaching the gospel, no?



Brother, I am still not able to understand clearly your point. But I assume that you are telling that God wants America to repent or any specific geography to repent. I assume your point is God is still interested in how nations are run or in politics etc.

I do not believe it is right. God wants entire mankind or human world to repent and come to Christ, which is true. But God's desire is not to have a specific group of people like Americans or Indians or any race to repent and represent Christ. Instead he has chosen his people out of these boundaries (mostly man made like National boundaries), to be his people and to represent him, this is the Church. I do not see anyone addressing a nation to repent in the NT or a race to repent in NT.

Yes we need to preach the Gospel, but it is to individuals than to a group. Even though the Apostles preached to groups, the call to repent was for individuals. They never asked a group to repent and come to Christ. So it is not appropriate to ask whole of America to repent of its sins.

I do not see the problem with USA in the liberals or in its liberal laws or government principles. Changing them or stricter laws will not help and is not the right approach. The problem is with the Church in America. They do not represent Christ anymore. Most Churches have gone far of from Christ. When Christ is exalted, he will draw men to himself. But Church is not doing this simple task, instead they are talking about political government to control sin. If Church has a pure testimony then the people in the nation will change.

Yes, God is still in control and he holds the heart of all world rulers. But the purpose here is to shape the Church rather than to shape or structure all people. For example God still allows a hard dictator to rule so that he can shape the Church through persecution. He allows a government with religious freedom to rule because he can allow the Church to spread the gospel through the freedom they enjoy. All this for the Bride to Adorn herself.


_________________
Sreeram

 2020/5/3 8:18Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1390
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: brother Sree

Ha! You posted a quote from me that was fairly straightforward (minus a misspelled word) which even held an olive branch of sorts in presenting an obvious fact asking for your agreement so we could find common ground to build on :)

However, tho you quote my words, you seem to ignore them and begin what amounts to lesson of sorts based on assumptions (your own words) and a need to disagree-
This can be said with confidence as the “olive branch” was rejected 🤷🏽‍♂️
Again dear brother, I have no quarrel with you tho we do not see things in a compatible way past the basics of Christ and Him crucified. As stated in a previous thread I am completely ok with this and have no desire to “convert” you to my way of thinking or practical living out of faith :)

Having said that, this thread is a response (of sorts) to several threads where saints say things like you are saying here (and there) which I find borderline at best but most likely an overconfidence in a shortsighted albeit a passionately held belief that was not born in heaven, but is a creative endeavor nonetheless.
There is a clear basis for this being displayed in this thread, from the beginning a question was being asked in good faith,... a question born out of a prayerful occurrence that I desired to bring forth and share with my brethren here,... to have an earnest discussion to be able to work out what has been worked in . It was and is being done in a teachable and peaceable spirit, hoping to foster a community effort with each giving the other the “benefit of the doubt”- which is to say that nothing being put forth was really to be “disagreed” with so much as “developed” building where we had light to and otherwise if no place was found then simply observing the development of others :)

All to often a thread begins here in like fashion only to have someone who sees it differently to jump on the board and begin their diatribe telling everyone else how they are wrong.... rather than just letting us work out our own perspectives together, or perhaps using their different perspective to grow and guide the group. But that is not at all what happens here, rather you “strongly disagreed” and tho I have been careful to point out that we aren’t actually disagreeing as you might think and disclaiming that you had clearly misunderstood my point, even attempting to find common ground in the basics of our faith with you personally so as to form a bond that can be exercised unto godliness but that, by your actions, attitudes and words, is clearly not what you are after but rather you dear brother seem offended, and determined to cause strife where there is none, otherwise why ignore the “olive branch” ?
I’ll be honest with you, I don’t believe you even saw it as that, but rather your desire, need to be right and make others believe so has blinded you to a more gentle and peaceable way -
I say this not to cause or require you to argue in defense of yourself but rather to see that there is, especially when brethren are asking questions putting forth ideas to be developed, to disagree in a way that doesn't prevent progress :)

To be clear,... I am saying that you appear to be making assumptions, projecting those assumptions and then reacting to your own projection as opposed to what is being said .


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Fletcher

 2020/5/3 10:36Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1756


 Re:

Quote:

So why then in our modern age do we attempt to separate Him from our governing bodies ?



Fetcher, the crux of your post is this above question. According to you there are so many references in the Bible of God showing interest in Governing bodies but Christians of present time are not much interested in governing bodies. I believe it is a genuine question, nothing wrong about it.

I am someone who strongly believe that Christians should not show too much interest in politics. Also I believe that God is no longer interested in governing bodies in the perspective that you are presenting. He still controls them but not interested in Governments running by his principles. My simple answer is there is NO NEW TESTAMENT verse to support your claim. No where in New Testament God is showing any interest of controlling governing bodies to run by his ways.

I also gave my reason for why I believe God acting this way in New Covenant.

The purpose of any discussion is to bring different preservatives, it is not to convince anyone. You may not agree with my answer and you have all rights to live by Old Covenant letters (which will eventually kill!). But one has to respect every alternate view especially when it is presented with clear scriptural proof the way I have done. You can choose not to agree with my answer but you cannot deny my answer.

I normally have discussions with Atheists on existence of God. The end result is not conversion of Atheists (though I long for it to happen) but they end up telling that I have a clear reason to believe what I believe. Most Atheists start the discussion with a mindset that Christians have blind faith but at the end of the discussion they acknowledge that my faith is based on sound logical thinking. They will choose NOT to agree with my logical view but they cannot deny that I have a clearly thought about logical view. This is exactly what we need to achieve through our threads as well. We may not change our views but we have to end up with respect


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Sreeram

 2020/5/4 11:04Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1390
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: brother Sree

Dear brother let first state that I love you and your heart for all things true and holy are evident and inspiring 😇🙏🏻

Tho, again, there for some reason is a disconnect in what I am attempting to present as an observation and what you are understanding/reading that I am sayin... 🤷🏽‍♂️ What’s to do other than pray and wait on the Lord?

An example is that you seem to believe that I am suggesting that the Lord is desirous of “control over governments” - tho I never said or even suggested as much but in fact quite the opposite! That being said, I am saying that He has, does and will work within the framework of a government or organization or group or individual to further His plans:)

That’s it, full stop...

apparently because of the predetermined understanding of the term “covenant” it was a poor choice on my part to attempt to express an observation that came from a time of intimate prayer, my personal “quiet time” with the Lord -

And yes as I’ve previously stated in this thread I have found that the pooling of our differing perspectives has a potential to be beneficial to the cause of Christ, which necessarily includes different understandings and even disagreements, provided the disagreements don’t fall below the NC standard of spirit and delve into the works of the flesh -

There are numerous New Testament examples of the Lord working within the structures of governments to bring about His plan for the advancement of the Kingdom- in fact the entire new covenant at its inception stands as an unassailable testimony to this fact with the Roman Empire being hostile (as an official stance) towards our faith and the promotion of such. Yet the Lord worked within that pre-established structure by the work of His spirit in various individuals and groups to magnify Jesus :)
And has throughout history done the same,... it’s something that can be argued really ... anymore than someone could legitimately argue that water isn’t wet ?

So when I say, we don’t disagree on the points you’re raising- that’s simply a fact. While it is also a fact that you are addressing a point that I’m not making much less defending but you seem to believe so ? 🤷🏽‍♂️

I am everything short of certain that if we could sit and reason together there would be allot less confusion and talking past one another but alas,.. as grateful as I am for an online medium such as SI there are indeed observable limitations to its capacity to facilitate clear and consistent communications -

In any case there are no hard feelings and still have hope to develop this concept because I honestly believe it to be a worthy endeavor 🙏🏻

Blessings upon you dear brother and may the grace and mercy of our Father be yours in abundance 😇




_________________
Fletcher

 2020/5/4 15:14Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5483
NC, USA

 Re:

//I am someone who strongly believe that Christians should not show too much interest in politics. //

I can understand why one might say this, but things are a little different in a democracy today compared to the government in Paul’s day, for example- which was emperorship by force. The only option for the Christians in those days was to try to influence governments like yeast in dough via the gospel. Thank goodness they were successful!

Of course we do have that option today as well, but we also have the vote, which requires at least a modicum of interest in politics if we are to vote as God would have us vote. I have little doubt that God expects Christians to vote, even if it means voting for the lesser of two evils which all too often is the only choice we have.


_________________
Todd

 2020/5/4 17:21Profile
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1756


 Re:

Quote:

I can understand why one might say this, but things are a little different in a democracy today compared to the government in Paul’s day, for example- which was emperorship by force. The only option for the Christians in those days was to try to influence governments like yeast in dough via the gospel. Thank goodness they were successful!




This is a very good observation. I appreciate the fact that you have agreed with my point that the apostles in New Covenant were not involved with government like how Prophets of Old did.

Now regarding democracy, I do not believe it is even in God's plan. When Israel wanted King, God did not allow them to elect one, instead he appointed a king. If democracy is such a good model, then why not allowing the people to elect one? Further in New Covenant there is no mention of elders getting elected in a Church. So I do not believe Churches should follow democracy.

I have no problem with countries following democracy. It is the best system that men have come up with. But when we say that a bunch of Christians can influence the government in the name of Democracy then we should also accept Muslims influence the democratic government of Pakistan and Hindus influencing the democratic government of India. This has resulted in the persecution of minority religion in those so called democratic countries because the majority people who elected the government want the country to support their own religion.

I personally have not voted and have no view against others who are voting.


_________________
Sreeram

 2020/5/4 18:28Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1390
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: FTR

America is not (as a form of government) a democracy - democracy is a social experiment... America (As a form of government) is a representative republic - and in that system Muslims citizens can and do have an “equal” voice - take the Somali populace in Minnesota as an example.


_________________
Fletcher

 2020/5/4 19:08Profile





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