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JFW
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Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1390
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: brother David

You wrote :
“ The early settlers came here and planted a cross on the first beach they walked on after departing from their ship. They were carrying the blessings of Abraham to distant shores and a new country when they did this.”

YES AMEN!
And when I use the term “covenant” I’m putting it in quotations to utilize the term loosely- the reason I’m not using contract or some other similar term is because of the unilateral workings of a covenant versus a contract which is, by design, open to negotiation. What I’m hoping [but apparently struggling] to point out, and forgive me because this is somewhat fresh and not fully formed yet, is that God seems to have a consistent track record of being open to provisional arrangements within the Abrahamic covenant,... or if I’m understanding you correctly, because of it ?


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Fletcher

 2020/5/1 15:23Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5483
NC, USA

 Re:

//Well I don't think we can consider these things with our eyes on the practical out working. We are just called to humble ourselves pray and seek his face.
The power of even one individual really doing this in faith is 'exceedingly abundantly above all we ask or think.' //

I agree with this Ian. Then why do people call for “national repentance?” It ain’t gonna happen and I am not even sure that is what God is looking for.


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Todd

 2020/5/1 17:57Profile
Ianb
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Joined: 2020/4/28
Posts: 16
England

 Re: Todd

You are right bro.
I fear that in the developed world at least, David Wilkersons catastrophic prophecies will prove accurate and we will all have to face things we would rather not. Its part of the great falling away that heralds his return.

I believe most of us in some way or other are too involved with the humanistic tendancies that Paris Riedhead accurately diagnosed in 'Seven Shekels and a shirt'.

God Operates for his own glory. and we approach him as though he is 'Trying' to achieve 'Things' in our lives and our nation. He is sovereign and does what he wills among the children of men.

We look at Scripture and interpret Him in our own image and run into battle like Israel, thinking we have inquired of the Lord but really we have consulted our own understanding.

At least this is painfully how it has been with me in far too many instances.

With our eyes on Him not the world, may we, who are saved, fall on our faces and stay there till we see this exceeding abundance above 'All we ask or think'. He longs to gather us for his own great names sake. Don't let his final sentence be to us as it was to Israel
'But ye would not, now is your house left to you desolate'

In obedience to scripture lets pray for our nation as, in His response to our asking, many can be drawn out of 'The city of destruction' and the whole nation can still be blessed. We don't know the parameters of the great falling away, but we do know his tender mercies are over all his works and we do know that there is light at evening time.

I believe all the gracious moves of God testify to this.


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Ian Bailey

 2020/5/2 3:25Profile
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Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2128


 Re:

/ that God seems to have a consistent track record of being open to provisional arrangements within the Abrahamic covenant,... or if I’m understanding you correctly, because of it?/

Hmmm. Interesting question. I've understood I think that when God entered into covenant with Abraham that this covenant formed the basis of all of His subsequent dealings with mankind. I think He might honor any provisional arrangements within the Abrahamic covenant because of it. But He might say, why make another covenant or add a provision, rather, just be faithful to the Abrahamic covenant and all other things are meant to take care of themselves as you honor it.

I have to admit I'm surmising a bit here because as you, I'm just considering these things in a bit of a new way because of your post.

Thank you bro.


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David Winter

 2020/5/2 7:28Profile
JFW
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Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1390
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: brother David

Yes it would be plausible (in my mind) in either way ... but in either case wether a provisional or all inclusive one thing is for sure, it is by faith just like with Abraham- yet and this was/is the original point,... the Lord seems to clearly operate within pre existing power structures, wether governmental or civil or otherwise and what I’m asking is why do we imagine this has ceased (from other posts and threads) and what would keep us from seeing His hand at work ?

Would it not be faith?
Or a lack thereof ....


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Fletcher

 2020/5/2 8:42Profile
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Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1390
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: brother Ian

Thank you again for sharing your insights :)
I’m hoping you can help me to better understand what you are saying-
In one instance you say “God isn’t trying” that He is sovereign and simply does as He pleases- yet in the next paragraph make point that God “longs to draw is unto Himself” -
I’m not saying that there is an inherent contradiction between these two statements or even that I disagree with them,... rather I’m hoping you may be willing to expand on them and help me to better understand your concept of the sovereignty of God ?


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Fletcher

 2020/5/2 8:49Profile
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Joined: 2020/4/28
Posts: 16
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 Re:

Ill try brother Fletcher.

In the sentence 'He longs to draw us to himself' I was refering to Jesus longing to draw Israel to himself as a hen gathers her chicks.

In the statament 'God isn't trying' I was 'trying' rather clumsily to express the fact that our view (my view anyway) of what God 'wants' is often in contradiction with the fact of his soverignty. All things are created for his pleasure (Rev 4)
he works all things after the counsel of his own will. (Eph.1)

Trying implies a degree of failure.

Though for the Glory of God he became a man of sorrows aquainted with grief, there is no fault or deviation from his divine purpose that he is 'trying' to rectify.
The angel seeing the situation on earth cried out holy holy holy the whole earth is filled with his glory.

The Longing is an expression of the compassionate yearning of his heart in his great love to us which the admonition 'But ye would not' of Mat.23 shows we are capeable of refusing to respond to, in spite of his for knowledge and the sovereignty of election.

It is a theme through out the OT pleading with wayward Children, 'inspite of it all yet return to me and I will heal you.'

Saying God isn't trying I was refuting the horrible Andrew Womack type theology which implies God all but lost control of his own creation when Adam bowed to Satan's enticement. And is now trying to regain it.

Though I know this is a false teaching I do find something equating to it creeping into my own prayers and desires. A practical humanism which draws from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil rather than faith in his perfect will and seeking only the glory of the Father as Jesus did.

Sorry I'm aware this is very badly expressed, I'm posting it anyway and will pray the Lord gives me more clarity.

Blessings


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Ian Bailey

 2020/5/2 9:51Profile
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 Re: brother Ian

Thank you that does indeed help to clarify your position.... it appeared you were holding to a reformed theology, tho since there are various degrees of adherence each with its own nuance it would seem appropriate to allow you to articulate your personal perspectives.

Thank you again for your willingness to correspond:)


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Fletcher

 2020/5/2 15:10Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1756


 Re: Biblical models today ?

Quote:

most cases does not the Biblical narrative reveal the Lord using secular governments and religious orders to bring about His plans?

So why then in our modern age do we attempt to separate Him from our governing bodies ? [be they civil or religious]



Sorry Brother Fetcher, I have to strongly disagree here. I understand that you have quoted verses like Israel should repent or Nineveh should repent etc. But these are all Old Testament verses. There is not a single verse in New Testament asking a country or city or a region to repent.

There should be a reason for it, right? Please think in this line.

When Jesus writes his letters, he is not addressing to the cities but the Churches in the cities. He is asking 5 out of 7 Churches to repent. So in New Covenant, it is not a city that has to repent but the Church or the Body of believers in that locality should repent.

Any preacher who preaches that America should repent or Africa has to repent, has no clue of God's heart in New Covenant. He is an Old Covenant person who has not entered the life of New Covenant at all. In New Covenant the messages are for the Churches that is believers.

Why is it so? 1 Peter 2:9 says "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light."

It is believers who are taken out of every nation to form a Nation for God. It is not America or any other physical nation in the world but we believers, though we are separated Physically, still we form a Holy Nation for the Lord. This is His plan.

Mixing religion and state is always a big mess, no matter which religion it is. Mixing Christianity and State forms Babylon whom God detests. Check the Church history for example, whenever the State and Church mixed, it was start of dark ages of Christianity in the form of Roman Catholic.

New Covenant is not made with a country. A country cannot live by the principles of Sermon on the Mount which a new covenant disciple of Jesus lives. We have to reduce the standard of New Covenant to please the people which will result in Church backsliding.

In India for example there a great desire among people to rule the country according to Hindu principles and make it a Hindu Nation. USA has now listed India as a Nation with very low religious freedom that persecutes minority. The Church is now persecuted in India because of the Hinduthva Government. Now as a Christian when we oppose the mix of Hinduism with Indian Government, how can we in right conscience encourage the mix of Christianity with American Politics? If we do then what is the difference between American Christians and the heathen people of India? One may argue that Christianity has more tolerance (which is true), the same argument I have heard Hindus also make. In fact Hindus have never attacked other nation and enslaved them like Christians, so they have better argument, honestly!



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Sreeram

 2020/5/2 16:56Profile
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Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1390
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: brother Sree

Thank you for your insights- and you never need to apologize to me for disagreeing ;)
That being said, it seems you might’ve misunderstood the point I am attempting to make and I realize now that using the word “covenant” even in quotes with a lil “c” has been misleading at best, ultimately betraying the point in question- I accept that.

Yes we don’t disagree that in the NC the Lord isn’t establishing a covenant with a “preselected” group per say, but rather making an appeal to them to repent and obey by faith the gospel:)
So we can agree that the Lord dies in fact call unbelievers to repent otherwise what’s the point of preaching the gospel, no?


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Fletcher

 2020/5/2 20:49Profile





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