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JFW
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Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 1438
Dothan, Alabama

 Biblical models today ?

Something occurred to me after hours of prayer this morning... [upon reflecting on the topics being discussed, the varied perspectives and approaches to the common challenges of our time] , in most cases does not the Biblical narrative reveal the Lord using secular governments and religious orders to bring about His plans?

So why then in our modern age do we attempt to separate Him from our governing bodies ? [be they civil or religious]

For example, there were always corrupt government officials who sought to exploit their power for base ends - like when Pharaoh ordered the male Hebrew children slaughtered... No where do the scriptures say (that I have seen) that God “did” that or was controlling Pharaoh making him decree this unholy thing,... but my Bible does say that God used it for the good !
It emphatically states that He was very much aware of this diabolical plot and the Lord (having a plan of His own) made a provision to act within the governmental structure that existed at the time by raising up and training Moses to operate within that system but with a power from without that system. So too it was with Joseph, Daniel, etc... even Jesus .

So why do we not think that the Lord is not,... has not done the same thing here in our age just as He has always done?
Would there not be evidence?
What would keep us from “seeing” or perceiving this evidence of His hand at work ?
Why are we so insistent that the Lord “doesn’t have a special covenant” with people, cities, states, nations, organizations, etc... when the scriptures clearly testify to the contrary?


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Fletcher

 2020/5/1 7:20Profile
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 Re: Biblical models today ?

Not sure what you mean Fletcher. Are you suggesting that God might have a capital C “Covenant“ with the US (or other nations) that we don’t explicitly know about? That the prosperity of the US over the last two hundred years is evidence of this hidden Covenant?


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Todd

 2020/5/1 12:42Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

I wouldn't see it so much as a "covenant" (as with the nation of Israel) but more like a sort of "relationship" between God and nations, regions, states or cities wherein they are accountable before God and suffer consequences or prosper in accordance with their conduct.

I think of the fact that Nineveh had this type of a "relationship" with God if you will, as well as Sodom and Gomorrah, and those cities that our Lord denounced in the gospels; although it does seem from those examples that it's more like God's judgment was either brought down upon populations or withheld accordingly as opposed to blessings being given or withheld. In other words, it doesn't seem like there's much of a promise of, or examples of prosperity given to people groups (besides Israel) who by and large do good (other than promises to be spared from judgment). Yet certain biblical principles (especially as we learn from Proverbs) would seem to back up the idea that people groups that do good are blessed and prospered by God, but it may be more like general principles that apply also to individuals, and not absolute promises.

For example, as a general rule, individuals are promised prosperity if they work hard as opposed to being sluggards. It seems more like common sense and natural if you will.

And there seems to be a general rule of people groups prospering when they are faithful to God and His Word as a whole. But it's not absolute, because sometimes there is much hardship and persecution brought upon God's people regardless of how faithful they are and how hard they work. It may ultimately depend on God's sovereignty, i.e. when He sees fit to either prosper, test, or judge people groups in His infinite wisdom.

So if it ultimately depends on God's sovereignty, can the faithfulness of God's people make a difference? Yes, the people of Nineveh said, "perhaps God will spare us if we repent in sackcloth and ashes," and we see that God did respond in mercy to their repentance. I think that's a good attitude to have, to say the same as Nineveh and do likewise during these dark and difficult times.

Just some musings that came to mind; carry on now-with UK English accent :)


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Oracio

 2020/5/1 14:11Profile
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 Re: brother Todd

Hey brother glad to hear from you:)) you’ve cone up in my prayers lately and so I hope you and your wife are well 🙏🏻

Well I’m not sure what you mean by “hidden” covenant ?
What I was hoping to suggest is that God honors repentance and obedience,... like when Jonah was required to call Nineveh to repentance-
They did and God honored it as an act of obedience by faith and as such they were blessed- that is a “covenant” of sorts, no?
The point being, is that the Lord works within the framework provided, be it a civil, social, governmental, military, or otherwise- to draw a people unto Himself that they might be saved.
Another example was Sodom, a call to repentance was ignored [repeatedly] and yet those whom were faithful, Lot and his family, were given instructions to provide an escape so in this case it was only a local or personal provisional “covenant”.
In other cases the Lord established a personal relationship with a small group or tribe or family or in the case of Rahab an individual that ultimately served as a “covenant” of sorts - an agreement or opportunity if you will- and I’m suggesting there is no evidence [as far as I can see] to suggest that He has stopped using this as a means to bring about His plans-


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Fletcher

 2020/5/1 14:15Profile
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 Re:

Flecher, looks like we were typing similar things, giving the same examples, and posted them at the same time lol.


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Oracio

 2020/5/1 14:17Profile
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 Re:

Just thinking out loud here. What of the original Abrahamic covenant from which all nations of the earth were to blessed? Later, the new covenant Jeremiah spoke of, made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, gives the necessary inward change that must occur before one can truly obey God from the heart. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness, likewise when we exercise faith we become the true sons of Abraham and all families of the earth being blessed is fulfilled in us. I don't think God has a special covenant with the United States. The early settlers came here and planted a cross on the first beach they walked on after departing from their ship. They were carrying the blessings of Abraham to distant shores and a new country when they did this. Any true blessings for America come from the Abrahamic covenant which requires faith in Christ to enter into its blessings. God knows of and may honor other covenants and types of covenants but His interest lies mainly in the provisions of the covenant made with Abraham. America would do well to have leaders raised up like Joseph who appeared in a time of crisis and knew beforehand what needed to be done Men who honor and desire to spread the blessings of Abraham through faith in Christ. While not denying the power of our Constitution, that would be covenant faithfulness. Just thinking out loud.


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David Winter

 2020/5/1 14:38Profile
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 Re:

At this point I do not know what “national repentance” would look like in the US with a population of 328 million.

Is national repentance a certain percentage? Every man woman and child? All Christians?

When I hear folks quote 2 Chron. 7:14 that’s what runs through my mind. If the verse is applicable at all to the US, which seems questionable, it says “my people who are called by my name”. So does that mean every Christian in the US or a reasonable sized chunk of them?


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Todd

 2020/5/1 14:58Profile
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 Re: brother Oracio

Ha! Yes I’m also seeing that 😇


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Fletcher

 2020/5/1 15:08Profile
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 Re: brother Todd

Well we do in fact have a Biblical model for what [i understand] you are asking...
remember how with Sodom, the Lord had the conversation with Lot over the number of people, and how He kept lowering the requirements till it was a forgone conclusion?

Is that the type of thing you’re asking about ?


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Fletcher

 2020/5/1 15:11Profile
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 Re:

Well I don't think we can consider these things with our eyes on the practical out working. We are just called to humble ourselves pray and seek his face.
The power of even one individual really doing this in faith is 'exceedingly abundantly above all we ask or think.'

The revival in South Africa with Andrew Murray took no account of the condition even of the church in the nation or the condition of the country itself. God just proved himself sovereign and honored his promises to his servants when the diligently prayed.

Likewise on Lewis in 1949 a small group of intercessors got hold of Gods promises and the whole island was influenced so wonderfully

(this was a reply to Todd's post)


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Ian Bailey

 2020/5/1 15:18Profile





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