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TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5587
NC, USA

 Re:

Why can’t folks just admit that the “set-up” in Job is just terrible? It really is. It’s not wrong to say it. That’s why this friend in the OP is struggling.

Platitudes don’t help at all- I am sure he has heard all of them and all the justifications.

It is an extremely difficult passage to understand regardless how it turned out for Job.


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Todd

 2020/1/12 8:15Profile
jochbaptist
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Joined: 2010/11/24
Posts: 307


 Re: God and the accuser wager over Job's life

The God who Devastates by Art Katz

Topic: Devastation
Scripture(s): Proverbs 1:7
Description: Art Katz speaks prophetically using the holocaust and the sufferings of Job applying it to the Church and the need of repentance. If Divine reality is to come into the church in its present unreal condition, then we need to expect devastations in our midst of the deepest and challenging kind. The text is from the suffering of Job.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=3328


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J Kruger

 2020/1/12 17:49Profile
Sree
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Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1767


 Re:

First and foremost there is a great logical flaw in the question posted by OPs friend. One cannot deny a fact because it does not feel good to them. For example one cannot deny the spinning of the earth just because one cannot feel the spin. If we consider the existence of God as a fact, one cannot deny this fact because the nature of God is not feel good to them.

To understand Job better we need to understand what is valuable in the sight of God. Job 1:1 stays about Job's spiritual righteousness and after that only verses 2 to 4 talks about his Physical blessings like his possession.

Even God himself presents only the Spiritual condition to Satan, he does not even mention about how many goats, camels that Job has to Satan.

All this shows that God is only interested in spiritual condition of Job. This is the same from Genesis to revelation.

But OPs friend with his unconverted heart, values only Physical blessings of Job and that is why they cannot value what God does in Job's life to uplift his spiritual condition. It is impossible for him to value what God values as well. That is why he feels that what was done to Job was a terrible act.

Job had a self righteousness in him. He argued to his friends that he does not deserve to be in this condition because of his righteous God fearing acts! God had already seen this in Job even before it came out his mouth. God wanted to remove this self-righteousness in Job. That is why in the End Job says that he now has seen God and repents from his self-righteousness (Job 42:5 and 6).

Hebrews 2:10 says that Jesus himself was made perfect through sufferings. If God did not spare his own son from suffering then where are you, I and Job.

Again unless a person is truly born again, he cannot understand how God values our spiritual condition more than Physical. He will always call Jobs treatment as bad and unjust. But if we know God even little then we will acknowledge the value that God brought inside Job through all this suffering is nothing compared to the sufferings he went through. That is why Paul who knew the ways of God says,

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us (Romans 8:18).


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Sreeram

 2020/1/12 21:14Profile









 Re:

Good points, Sree!

I'm reading Job right now. Just finished chapter 19.

Job's "unfair" suffering certainly points to the Just (Jesus) taking the penalty of sin and unimaginable sufferings on the cross for the sake of the unjust (you and me).

Job's trial was not only about himself. What he said and did, and how he came through it undoubtedly had an enormous impact upon many, many people all around him. If he had accepted his wife's counsel to "curse God and die," who knows how much that might have shaken or overthrown the faith of so many others in that region? Job was a pillar of faith in the almighty God in the community.

Even his "miserable comforters" have remarkable wisdom, but it is undermined with their wrongful accusations of secret sin.

 2020/1/13 6:50
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5587
NC, USA

 Re:

We also must remember that God did not just strike Job himself in order to “improve” him, but he also allowed his children to be killed.

“If we obey what God says according to our sincere belief, God will break us from those traditions that misrepresent Him. There are many such beliefs to be got rid of, e.g., that God removes a child because the mother loves him too much — a devil’s lie! and a travesty of the true nature of God. If the devil can hinder us from taking the supreme climb and getting rid of wrong traditions about God, he will do so; but if we keep true to God, God will take us through an ordeal which will bring us out into a better knowledge of Himself.” ~ Oswald Chambers


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Todd

 2020/1/13 7:08Profile
Solomon101
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Joined: 2008/4/1
Posts: 531
America's Heartand

 Re:

I would like to present a moment of honesty. Hopefully everyone could also drop the "religiosity" and be honest as well.

In Job satan tells God the only reason Job serves Him is because of the protection and blessing God gives him.

satan then asks for the permission to destroy Job's health, finances, and murder his children. God allows this to happen. Let that sink in. God gives permission for satan to destroy Job's health, finances, and murder his children..
Yes, later restored ... but the point is that God permitted this. It appears that the only motivation was that God was proving to satan that Job would still be faithful. In fact there is one time God angrily respond to satan basically saying that satan had pushed Him into this "proving" contest.

NOW FOR THE HONESTY PART....

If you had a criminal in your town that said the only reason your children loved you was because you blessed and protected them. He then bet you that if he could infect your children with diseases, destroy everything they owned, and then murder their family they would disown you. You had every ability to either allow or stop this assault on your kids. However, to prove they would not disown you the assault on your children is approved by you. YOU ALLOW AND PERMIT the disease infection, financial ruin, and murder of your own child's family ... just to prove they would not disavow you.

If someone did this in your world everyone on this forum would be screaming of child abuse and to lock them up!

How would you feel toward a parent that willingly let a man enter their childs bedroom and inject them with diseases as they slept? How would you feel about a person that gave all their childs financial banking information to a person allowing them to steal their entire life savings costing them their home and all they had? How would you feel about a person that willingly allowed a person to enter their children's house and murder all the family at gunpoint. The parent had every ability to stop all this ... but allowed it just to prove a point to the man attacking the kids. How would you feel about that person .... Be honest.

You would absolutely brand them as a child abuser, wouldn't you.

THIS is why the man's friend in the op is in a quandary about Job. He sees God making choices that are diametrically opposed to every sense of goodness and justice that are known. If a person did what God did in Job everyone on this forum would brand them a child abuser, accessory to murder, and criminal of the worst sort.

Failure to see this and be honest about it is why the op's friend is in a quandary.

All the religious platitudes and efforts to somehow make the story palatable are shallow, hollow, and easily seen through by anyone not afraid to look at it with clear glasses. We should not continue to lie to ourselves about the reality of what happened ... much less make up false narratives to try and sooth our conscience about it. It happened exactly as the book states. I'm sure no one likes it, few want to be honest about it, and almost all try to somehow twist it around to make it fit their preconception biased theology.

It is apparent that most do not understand God nearly as well as they think they do.

 2020/1/13 10:45Profile









 Re:

Actually, Solomon101, you are reading things into the narrative that are not there.

You wrote: "In fact there is one time God angrily respond to satan basically saying that satan had pushed Him into this "proving" contest."

Nowhere in the book of Job does it say that God was angered by Satan's accusations. However, His wrath *was* kindled against Job's friends who did not speak the things that were right concerning Him and His servant Job (see Job 42:7).

James 5:11 says, "Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy."

James, filled with the Holy Ghost, wrote the above, understanding the heart and purpose of God regarding Job, and his example to us.

 2020/1/13 14:37
Sree
Member



Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1767


 Re:

Quote:

Nowhere in the book of Job does it say that God was angered by Satan's accusations. However, His wrath *was* kindled against Job's friends who did not speak the things that were right concerning Him and His servant Job (see Job 42:7).



Well said. It is a very primitive thought process to think that God and Satan had a challenge with Job. Satan is not equal negative power of God. God created Satan and uses his foolish actions for His (God's) glory.

In Job's case as well, Satan thought of destroying Job but God fooled him to bring Job to a higher plane.

Similarly in Peter's case as well, Satan was given permission to test Perter, even though Jesus knew clearly Perter is going to fail. But Jesus knew that Peter will one day speak a short sermon that will bring 3000 people to Christ! To prepare Peter, God used Satan and there by fooling Satan again.

May be it is a Sunday School mistake to show kids that God and Satan had a head to head battle with Job!

I personally believe God permitted Job's children to die because God also knew that Job will not be disturbed by it. God will never tempt anyone beyond what he can take (1 Cor 10:3).

In fact Job came with flying colors, when his Children died he ended up worshiping God. Even when his body was hurt by sores, he said that he is willing to receive both God and bad from God! All this God knew that Job will handle.

But later it was Job's friend's who brought the self righteousness out of Job by their poor council! It was actually his friends who became too much for Job to handle. Hence God was angry at Job's friends because they made a righteous man stumble!


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Sreeram

 2020/1/13 14:51Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5587
NC, USA

 Re:

Alec wrote:

//Actually, Solomon101, you are reading things into the narrative that are not there.
You wrote: "In fact there is one time God angrily respond to satan basically saying that satan had pushed Him into this "proving" contest."//

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, ***although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.”*** (emphasis supplied)
Job 2:3


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Todd

 2020/1/13 14:57Profile
romanchog
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Joined: 2011/10/27
Posts: 329


 Re:

I would like to thank all that have answered thus far.

I would like to first state that there is no doubt that this person I love is saved. However, he has allowed himself to be taken so far away from his First Love that he no longer recognizes the One he once loved. I have seen the enemy pull him further and further away, to the point now that he has been doubting that God is good, and mocks the fact that we use the Bible to prove the Bible, responds to convicting scriptures with a joke or a "meme," and other such things. I know that He Who began a good work in him will complete it, but it is so hard to watch the process.

As to the responses, I have been reading and pondering all of the responses. I think all of them are correct, even if that seems contradictory.

The issue I think is what we think of the nature of God. If we know God is good and merciful and graceful, we come at this question from a different perspective. Job summarizes this thought: "Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?” Job 2:10.

If we think God is like us, then His motives and response seem rather cruel.

And while there may have been what appeared to be a wager, we do no really know God's intent; He does one thing for more than one reason. As someone said, Job did learn something from this, and though he had a "righteous" heart, his idea of God was not entirely correct and he felt justified to judge God.

But these responses are not satisfying to one who is not at peace with God generally. I do not know how to respond to him in a way that makes him understand. Someone mentioned the suffering of Jesus, which was definitely unfair and unjust, and I know that is something we, and I assume he as well, are all glad about.

I don't think there is a satisfactory answer for our earthly minds. It does seem cruel; yet, I KNOW it is NOT because my God is good! My prayer is that the Holy Spirit will reach into his soul and enlighten him with the love of Christ.

Thank you all for taking the time to respond.

EDITED TO ADD THIS: I think, however, that we need to have an answer ready (1 Pet 3:15), and I really don't. It is not enough for me to say, "You have to wait until you understand God," or, "you don't get it because you are unconverted (or your heart is wrong, etc.)." For someone who is seeking, these seem like trite answers to a legitimate question. I will continue praying for the answer that God wants me to give this person (if He wants me to answer him at all).

Natalie.


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Natalie

 2020/1/13 14:58Profile





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