Poster | Thread | earnestlycontend Member

Joined: 2003/11/23 Posts: 69 Flinstone, GA
| Re: | | Not trying to be contentious, and still enjoying the conversation, but:
If we let a two-piece bathing suit fall under the umbrella of Biblical modesty, how would we define immodesty?
KingJimmy, I appreciate your openness and I'm pretty sure I understand your background in the Wesleyan Holiness tradition. Given that, I think we have common experiences, I'm wanting to learn and refine my own beliefs.
Thanks, Kendal _________________ Kendal Shipley
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| 2005/7/14 19:54 | Profile | KingJimmy Member

Joined: 2003/5/8 Posts: 4419 Charlotte, NC
| Re: | | Quote:
If we let a two-piece bathing suit fall under the umbrella of Biblical modesty, how would we define immodesty?
My point is that you cannot define immodesty simply by how much something reveals, or how tight it is. This is where I have to respectfully disagree with those who come from the same tradition as I. If you are going to try to determine what is immodest by how much skin something reveals, then you are going to run into a big flat wall when you deal with Isaiah 20, where Isaiah was commanded by God preach nude for 3 years. His preaching in the nude wrecks every definition of modesty and holiness I've seen out of my own tradition- yet we can be sure, there was probably no prophet in the Old Testament besides Moses who understood the holiness of God so well, and walked in that.
Modesty is a spirit, a mindset, a manner of life, a gift from God, a state of being. A modest person seeks to please God in their dress. An immodest person is always trying to draw attention to their body. There are people who are covered with clothes from head to toe, without a stitch of makeup on, yet have an immodest seductive spirit about them. The immodest person goes about trying to lure people in a sexual manner- it doesn't matter what they have on, or don't have on. Their aim is not to please God by any means.
We have to get beyond this mindset that defines modesty by what clothing is where, and how much of it. It's not a matter of quantity. If you are thinking about modesty in a matter of quantitative terms, I believe you are thinking wrong. If it were a matter of such, then I think the Scriptures would give instruction on what proper clothing is in that regard. The only passages I have come across that even remotely suggests lengths for various garments has to do with priestly garments in temple rituals.
But, I find it horriably interesting that this sort of thing is entirely lacking in the Scriptures... yet in our tradition, such has been a major deal, and many people have been labeled to be living in sin because they had a certain style of clothing on, yet no Scriptural evidence is forthcoming to suggest such people were.
_________________ Jimmy H
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| 2005/7/14 22:18 | Profile | Eli_Barnabas Member

Joined: 2005/2/16 Posts: 621 Cache Valley, Utah
| Re: | | Quote:
Modesty is a mindset, not a dress code.
I agree that modesty is a mindset, [b]but that mindset affects your dress code.[/b] _________________ Eli Brayley
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| 2005/7/15 8:48 | Profile | earnestlycontend Member

Joined: 2003/11/23 Posts: 69 Flinstone, GA
| Re: | | I agree with you that modesty is more than how much clothes you have on, a person should definitely have a spirit of modesty. I don't think we can completely go with your definition by saying that it is just a mindset, though.
Let's go to the scriptures.
1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
Here Paul mentions "modest apparel," which does two things. One, it says modesty does have to do with apparel or clothing. Two, it implies that if there is such as modest apparel, then there must be immodest apparel.
Surely we can at least agree here?
Kendal _________________ Kendal Shipley
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| 2005/7/15 10:28 | Profile | ginnyrose Member

Joined: 2004/7/7 Posts: 7534 Mississippi
| Re: | | KJ,
You make some very good points about the scripture being silent as pertains to how long a garment should be to be deemed modest. But to take Isaiah as an example to justify scantily clothes begs the question even more, IMHO.
In the beginning in the garden, Adam & Eve designed their own clothes which the Bible describes as 'aprons' - bottoms covered, tops uncovered. But man designed clothing was inadeqate in God's eyes so he made them 'coats' of fur. Bible scholars tell me the 'coats' of the Bible were either knee or ankle length, depending on whether the garment was worn for dressy occasions or for work.
In 1 Timothy 2:9, (NASB): Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments..." Perhaps if we really are serious about this we should study history to see how the early church defined modesty?
It is true that wearing long garments will not guarantee a modest mindset. I have seen many women wear long skirts with slits up to forbidden territory. These slits act like teasers to make your eye wander to forbidden territory for lusting. My grandparents fornicated before they married - almost a hundred years ago - and she wore long skirts. Yes, immodesty begins in the mind and is manifested in the style of clothing one wears.
Scripture tells us we are the temple of the Holy Spirt, which means the Holy Spirit dwells within our physical body. That being the case, one should dress this body so one will not be tempted to physicallly lust after it. Since we belong to God, no godly woman will want to pattern her clothing styles after the world's fashions whose purpose is to flaunt their bodies for lustful purposes and to sell their product. Marketing success depends on people being dissatisfied and they exploit this to their advantage.
About Isaiah's ministry in the nude: if one reads the scripture carefully, we will notice this was an unique situation. I would venture to say, his audience would primarily been males because this would likely have been a sure turnoff for most women back then. Many females are not attracted to a naked male body like males are to females. We tend to be repulsed by it although this appears to be changing. If a male wants to impress me favorably, he better be dressed decent. Now if he is a painter by trade and just got done painting, I expect him to look the part, however, I also expect he will go home, shower and put on clean clothes as soon as time allows him to. And yes, I also have had a physician who is an avid hunter and would come to the office dressed to go to the field. But he was dressed. If he would have come in dressed ready to go dive in some swimming hole, I would have left. I would have gotten the message he wants to have sex...
Dress reveals to others what is in our heart. This is the bottom line. So if you do not want to be perceived as a harlot, then by no means dress like one. But if you dress like one, one can only assume that is what is in the heart. "Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." And there are more ways to speak then with the mouth: that is body language. Modest clothing with an immodest wiggle is repulsive and your clothing only makes it worse, IMHO.
Another question: why should Christians take their cues from ungodly persons on how we should dress? Would it not be safer to take it from the church? You talk are about how flawed this is, but is the world not flawed in every sense of the word? The world is dominated by rebellion to God, is at war with Him through people and is working 24/7 to destroy God's highest creation.
In my experience, the Holy Spirit has led me to how I should NOT dress. If He does this to me, I expect he will do it to others and we are called to faith which means we are to be obedient to what he is telling us to do.
Interesting discussion...what do you say?
ginnyrose _________________ Sandra Miller
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| 2005/7/15 12:03 | Profile | KingJimmy Member

Joined: 2003/5/8 Posts: 4419 Charlotte, NC
| Re: | | Quote:
I agree that modesty is a mindset, but that mindset affects your dress code.
Amen. _________________ Jimmy H
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| 2005/7/15 22:34 | Profile | KingJimmy Member

Joined: 2003/5/8 Posts: 4419 Charlotte, NC
| Re: | | Quote:
Here Paul mentions "modest apparel," which does two things. One, it says modesty does have to do with apparel or clothing. Two, it implies that if there is such as modest apparel, then there must be immodest apparel
I have no problem with this at all. I fully agree with it. _________________ Jimmy H
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| 2005/7/15 22:37 | Profile | KingJimmy Member

Joined: 2003/5/8 Posts: 4419 Charlotte, NC
| Re: | | Quote:
Bible scholars tell me the 'coats' of the Bible were either knee or ankle length, depending on whether the garment was worn for dressy occasions or for work.
Indeed, that is my understanding as well. It is my understanding that in the ancient world most people generally dressed in robes, both men and women alike. Though sometimes they would "gird up their loins" to run (pulling up their robes up their legs so as to enable running). Generally, most people only had a couple changes of clothes at best (thus, lots of OT laws about taking garments as a surity), and it would seem they wore these same garments in all seasons. It seems the average Joe in ancient society looked at clothing in a much more practical/functional way.
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Scripture tells us we are the temple of the Holy Spirt, which means the Holy Spirit dwells within our physical body. That being the case, one should dress this body so one will not be tempted to physicallly lust after it. Since we belong to God, no godly woman will want to pattern her clothing styles after the world's fashions whose purpose is to flaunt their bodies for lustful purposes and to sell their product.
I agree.
Quote:
About Isaiah's ministry in the nude: if one reads the scripture carefully, we will notice this was an unique situation. I would venture to say, his audience would primarily been males because this would likely have been a sure turnoff for most women back then.
Indeed, no doubt a unique situation. Though not entirely unique, as Isaiah's contemporary Micah did the same (Micah 1:8). What is unique to Isaiah is that Isaiah got a direct commandment, whereas Micah seems to have felt simply compelled as if he had no other choice, as if it were the logical thing for him to do given the situation.
I'm sure it was a major turnoff to most men for that matter. It probably was totally abhorant to everybody he came into contact with, save for perhaps the small group of disciples that sat under Isaiah's ministry. Kinda echo's the famous passage from Isaiah 6:10:
Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed.
No doubt Isaiah walking around buck naked clearly delivered the message, and everybody clearly understood it. But the message was without a doubt extremely offensive to them, and it would seem God designed it to be deliberately so, that a message would ring so clearly, yet still they would not return to God and be healed.
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Many females are not attracted to a naked male body like males are to females. We tend to be repulsed by it although this appears to be changing.
So I've heard. Men are definitely more visually oriented than women, but then again, God probably had to design it that way, cuz frankly, I think us guys aren't that great looking as it is. Women definitely look much better :)
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I would have gotten the message he wants to have sex...
Which is a point I thought we'd probably come to and hoped it would, as it seems it's be slowly but surely coming. I believe a lot of issues of modesty falls under to some degree what is socially acceptable under certain contexts. And if it is indeed culturally defined to some degree, and as well as contextually, then it must be further seen to be something that is a bit flexible (but perhaps we could just understand this under the already discussed 'not offending' others).
For example, how a prostitute dresses was talked about earlier in the thread. In our society, we tend to be able to point out prostitutes as women who are dressing in very tight, flashy, revealing clothing. Yet, we read in Genesis 38:15 that Judah identified Tamar as a prostitute not by how little she wore, but rather, it was her additional clothing that gave her away as such (a veil over her face at that!) So, two different societies, and two different extreme's of the spectrum in dress for identifying prostitutes.
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Dress reveals to others what is in our heart. This is the bottom line.
Agreed.
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So if you do not want to be perceived as a harlot, then by no means dress like one. But if you dress like one, one can only assume that is what is in the heart.
To a degree. In the youth ministry at my last church, there was a young girl, about 12 years old who one day showed up to our youth group in what many girls there even taunted her for as being dressed like a "hoochie," which deeply hurt her feelings. I was not exactly thrilled about the dress she was wearing either, as it was extremely short. Yet, I knew this girls heart about the Lord, and how she loved him dearly, as I've seen very few people her age ever with such a love, and I also knew the very difficult family background she was coming out of. I don't think she was trying to be immodest by any means, and partially was dressing the way she did out of ignorance, and partially out of that is all she had to wear.
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Another question: why should Christians take their cues from ungodly persons on how we should dress? Would it not be safer to take it from the church?
Indeed, it would be nice if such would happen. I long for a day when older men and women in the faith end up playing a large part of the discipleship process, especially for the younger generation. I highly enjoyed my 2 years at a local small Bible college, where many of the students were men of God in their 40's and 50's, that gave me a ton of meat to chew on.
Quote:
In my experience, the Holy Spirit has led me to how I should NOT dress. If He does this to me, I expect he will do it to others and we are called to faith which means we are to be obedient to what he is telling us to do
Amen. _________________ Jimmy H
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| 2005/7/15 23:27 | Profile | KingJimmy Member

Joined: 2003/5/8 Posts: 4419 Charlotte, NC
| Personal Confession | | Here is a personal confession of mine concerning the style I prefer my sisters in Christ to dress in for modest apparel:
At the beach, I would personally prefer they only wear a one piece bathing suit.
To me, I'm not picky if a woman is wearing pants, shorts, or a dress. So long as the shorts are not daizy dukes. Also, I've noticed a trend lately that some women wear white pants of some sort that is so thin that you can almost see through it, I'd prefer they stay away from this.
If the woman will wear a dress/skirt, I'd strongly prefer it not be a mini-skirt, though, it does not have to be something that comes down to their knees either.
Regarding shirts/sweaters and the like, I don't mind if it is sleeveless, and even if it shows their shoulders. I have no problem with tanktop's. My biggest care is I'd prefer women stay away from showing their cleveage, though maybe perhaps just a little bit is acceptable. Also, I think they should stay away from shirts that are so thin to where you can makeout the design of their bra.
Regarding makeup, I don't have a problem with women wearing it, I'd just prefer they not cake it on. Personally, I think the cake on style of makeup is tacky as it is. I think a little makeup , with a rather natural look to it is best.
I prefer most women have hair that comes down at least half way down their neck. I think it is very nice if a woman has hair that comes down to at least a little below her shoulders, but I don't much care for women who have hair coming down to their lower back (I once saw a woman who had hair down to her knees). However, there are a few women I think that perhaps a very short hair style is very nice on (e.g. think Haley Berry (sp?)). I'm not very picky when it comes to hair though.
I also don't mind if women wear jewlery, so long as you don't have to wonder if they need a Loomis Fargo security truck to haul them around in.
Just thought I'd state my personal preferences. Depending on various contexts, I don't mind if there is some variation to this. _________________ Jimmy H
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| 2005/7/16 8:47 | Profile | ginnyrose Member

Joined: 2004/7/7 Posts: 7534 Mississippi
| Re: Personal Confession | | KJ, you are very brave to expose your personal convictions! and I applaud you for it even though I disagree with you. Having said that, let me assure you that as you walk in faith, being obedient to the Holy Spirit as he leads you, you will find yourself changing. It usualy happens in small degrees but not always. Occasionally, it goes by leaps and bounds.
A basic point is that as we serve the LORD wherever he places us, we do not want that message to be distracted by immodesty. If a person wears suggestive clothing, the mind of the person being served will be distracted and he/she cannot hear what is being said. If we disagree on the "how tos" perhaps we need to focus on how we can best keep the interest of the person we are ministrying to. For example, if you wanted to share spiritual things with an Amish person, you better not wear the color red because he/she will likely be offended by it. So while you may not be offended, they might and this is an important aspect of being sensitive to others weakness, convictions in serving our LORD.
On the issue of dress/modesty, if you study the Bible, comparing scripture with scripture, OT and NT, asking for Holy spirit guidance it will be the most enlightning thing that can happen. When you are being willing to be led you will not need to ask people for approval although you will be teachable.
This has been my experience in life. God has not failed me yet, but I have Him, sad to say.
I suppose we are on the same page, right?
ginnyrose _________________ Sandra Miller
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| 2005/7/16 15:37 | Profile |
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