Brother Greg said

"I do think ordaination is important, as we do not want to be lone-rangers doing our own thing. It is important to be validated by other brethren and to have the sense of submission that the apostles had to Christ or Christ had to the Father.

Groups from Watchman Nee's little flock movement to brethren movements, to pentecostal, to baptist, to waldensian, etc all had a process of ordination as scripture warrents it in 1 Timothy 3. This does not quelch the Holy Spirit but ensures that in hopefully most cases godly men who are servants and full of the holy spirit become leaders (servants) in the body."

Brother Greg, Doesn't this statement seem insufficient to justify a methodology for a matter of such importance?
One would be equally justified to support deacons, for example, being appointed by the congregation from the text describing the Apostolic instruction for the people to select servants of widows in the infancy of the church.
And, as I previously alluded, the approval of elders by Timothy and Titus on the basis of a vote of the local congregations is also arguable from the applicable texts.

I hope I do not come across as against clear leadership by elders and to some degree by five fold men. I think the Scripture supports those two clearly. The nature and the extent of the leadership (servant based and prerequisites of full of faith and Spirit ) for apostolic leaders is very difficult to ascertain or get a grip on if one is honest. There is however, a clear deficit of support for the models that are mostly used today and resort to "apostolic tradition" outside of Scripture is wholly insufficient and I would say significant error to justify a system of leadership.

If men are Holy Spirit filled and full of faith ( a criteria very commonly omitted from most ordination systems) , then one would presume that the form of the model would follow the substance. Unfortunately, and in some cases tragically, forms have been substituted for substance or take the place of substance because so rarely is being full of the Spirit recognized, acknowledged or embraced as a criteria for leadership. When we lack the Spirit, then we come up with "Spirit substitutes" and justify them with reason and resort to historical practices in order for the church to function.

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Robert

And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they had believed. - Acts 14:23

Strong's
Red Letter
χειροτονέω
Transliteration cheirotoneō
Pronunciation khā-ro-to-ne'-ō (Key)LISTEN
Part of Speech verb
Root Word (Etymology)
From a comparative of χείρ (G5495) and teino (to stretch)
Greek Inflections of χειροτονέω
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
TDNT Reference: 9:437,1309
Strong's Info
Outline of Biblical Usage
to vote by stretching out the hand
to create or appoint by vote: one to have charge of some office or duty
to elect, create, appoint


it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, - Acts 15:25

Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, - Acts 15:22

Therefore, brothers, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we will appoint to this duty. - Acts 6:3

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Robert

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Travis

If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. - Matthew 18:17

For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough, - 2 Corinthians 2:6

Choose for your tribes wise, understanding, and experienced men, and I will appoint them as your heads.' - Deuteronomy 1:13

More instances of voting on critical matters like turning an unrepentant brother over to Satan. The Deuteronomy verse is very similar to the Acts 14 verse where the people selected their elders

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Robert

Also Brother Greg, what verses would you use other than Titus 1:5
to argue for ordination?

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Robert

Hi Brother Greg,

Sorry for the multiplicity of questions. One other question occurred to me. If I’m reading correctly, in this and other posts on similar issues, you seem to support apostolic succession. If I’m correct in that, what is your Biblical support for that ? I’ve engaged several apologist seeing in the RCC on this point and all of them end up in a conundrum. It is tradition (church father writings ) that they use to support that notion with the limited and easily controverted example of replacing Judas. As they resort almost exclusively to tradition, what they end up acknowledging is that
apostolic succession is valid because those who succeeded the apostles say so. That is an obvious and troubling bootstrap argument that
concerns a most critical issue. Where do you come out on that point and what is your Biblical support for the leadership model you seem to support. It would be helpful. to undrrstand clearly what you are positing and why.

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Robert

I am not knowledgeable enough to comment on anything about Church fathers. But I would like to tell my views on, why I believe democracy is not God's method.

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Sreeram

Yes, I am sure those horrible Church Fathers would have loved to have attended 'scandalous', invested in junk bonds, spent tens of thousands on famous speakers, marveled at paying your tithe with an automated receiver at Church.

Those old guys were total losers.

They could have been spell bound by the coat swinging evangelist...and a whole row of folks fall down. They would be wowed to travel in the private Jet of another evangelist.

That Ignatius guy...a total loser.
He was too big on bishopric, too heavy on submission to Church authority, way to heavy on platitudes and holiness in believers and too light on independent congregations.
So, some Church leaders jumped on the band wagon, bishops and ecclesiastical power surged, leaders and power and heads all rose up.

We in the 21st century are way way above all that ecclesiastical hierarchical stuff. It was a definite sign he was copying the pagan hierarchy of the times. We don't do that.
We replaced all that with Presidents of organizations, Denominational heads, Vice presidents of organizations, treasurers, Marketing directors, facilitators and coordinators of all kinds. We moved away from all that terrible 'hierarchy stuff' to the CEO of the ministry.

You should have seen the lavishly equipped homes those old Fathers had...they had the best.

But, we are more spiritual than they were, more educated, more intelligent, more in-tune with the Spirit of God than they were.
We know perfectly well our 21st century eyes are vastly sharper than their stupid and inane 3-4th century eyes. We see clearly, they see through a glass dimly.

For all their terrible mistakes and sins and errors...God forbid just one or two of them were to be raised up to survey the spiritual landscape of our day, Would they applaud us? I dare say all of them would declare "has the whole Church in America become Laodicea?"

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Marvin