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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : tongues

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 Re:

I miss spelled. YET AGAIN, my vocab normally comes back to bite me in the butt. This is only one example...ekk... Sorry man. Thats another BIG mistake ( i also messed up extort, and exhort).

So, im REALLY SORRY ABOUT THAT!!

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
Yeshua,
Quote:
This did not clarify you were referring to tongues, as Paul is switching between tongues and not tongues, as you will see.

I thought i did, BOTH times. I was 'IN CONTEXT' talking about the 'purposes of tounges'. Prophetically is the second way tounges works, and it edifies the church.


Quote:
And he says if 2 or 3 people give a tongue 'and let [u]one[/u] interpret'.


1 Cor. 14:27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret;

Hmm, i always thought there needed to be 2. Hmm, hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Thanks for stating that, i accept that rebuke. I needed that, cause i would get mad when one person would interpret tounges.

Quote:
I wonder if you meant 'interpret', all along;

Yuppers...sorry.

Quote:
If may comment further, the gift of interpretation is a specific gift. Paul is saying that if the person giving the tongue doesn't have it and neither does anyone else, the person should not give the message to the church in tongues (v 28).

Amen!! Amen!! AMEN! To many pray in tounges in the mist of people. Where is the encouragement/edification?

After this convo, i think im back to the 'old' idea of it all. That yes, tounges is a spiritual language. BUT! I am not closing the book on it yet, still need to seek the Lord more.

 2005/7/15 23:21









 Re: tongues re really sorry about that

Yeshua,

Thanks for looking at the spelling for me. Maybe my post 'tongues and prophecy' on p5 of this thread, will now make more sense.

Also, as far as the context of a church gathering, I'd suggest prophecy is the one use of tongues which has the potential to edify the whole body simultaneously.

HOWEVER, the list philologos made -

Quote:
...the phrase "with the spirit" is synonymous with "in an unknown tongue". The interesting thing is that when Paul illustrates his point he identifies three areas of activity...
1. I will pray with the spirit
2. I will sing with the spirit
3. when thou shalt bless with the spirit
4. giving of thanks

The orientation of these activites is always God-wards. This is the individual reaching out to God in each instance.

is also, to the edifying of the Body. These are aspects of our communion in the Spirit.

 2005/7/16 15:21









 Re:

thanks for bringing up what Phil brought up.

Phil, how are those two terms 'interchangable' or the same?? Can you please explain this for me?

How do you 'bless with tounges, and give thanks in tounges'?? Thanks guys. Really helped me out.

 2005/7/16 17:11
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
“For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.” (1Cor. 14:14-15, KJVS)


Paul is contrasting two things here. He refers to the fact that if he 'prays in an unknown tongue' his understanding is unfruitful. In the church and in company with other saints the aim is to edify others but in this context 'tongues' will not edify them and will not help his own understanding.

He choices not either/or but both when he distinguishes between 'praying with the spirit' and 'praying with the understanding'. 'prayer with the spirit' is 'prayer with tongues', 'prayer with the understanding' is prayer without tongues. He says he will pray in both ways.

You would 'bless with tongues' by perhaps laying your hands on a brother and praying in tongues for him. You would 'give thanks in tongues' by praying with tongues for your meal. Anything that you can do 'with the understanding' in relation to prayer you can also do 'with the spirit/in tongues'. The difference is that your understanding will be more fruitful if you pray in your own language than in tongues. However, 'the understanding being fruitful' is not the only or even the main purpose of prayer.

If I haven't made this clear, please ask again.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/16 18:02Profile









 Re:

Yea, I'm still a little confused. Resently, i've been convicted or confused about praying in tounges 'over' people. I don't see the fruit in it.

There have been times, id be scared, and id pray in tounges. Then pray in english cause i 'got my train of thought back unto God'.

But, still. I don't see the purpose of having someone pray in tounges over me or anyone for that matter. (Please help me on this).

There was 2 experiences i had. Where id pray over someone in tounges. And both received the Holy Spirit one spoke in tounges. The other, received or 'unvealed' some other pheominal gifts.

I am now, 'in doubt'. About the prayer in tounges over someone.

I go to a Vineyard church, so we are more gentle about everything. But 'tounges over people' happens. Resently it has bothered me. Because of the scripture 'if no1 interprets he/she is to keep silent'. Am i misunderstanding all of this?

 2005/7/16 18:15
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

Yesh,

'if no1 interprets he/she is to keep silent'

That is what I read, but I don't hear that being taught.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2005/7/17 13:20Profile









 Re:

Yup, that's why I don't understand what Phil meant by 'tounges over someone'. Because of that scripture.

Today during church, i felt led to speak in tounges silently over my friend. God really showed stuff to everyone. It was good.

One thing i hold high. 'When you don't understand the scripture, Wait and Ask the Holy Spirit to re-iterate what the words of Jesus said'.

Being led by God is something that i strive for.

But, back on topic. Phil, can you shed some light on what you were speaking about??

 2005/7/17 23:30
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Yup, that's why I don't understand what Phil meant by 'tounges over someone'. Because of that scripture.


I don't think I used the phrase 'tongues over someone'. If I did I would want to change it. I am not referring to the staccato jabbering that is sometimes exercised. Paul seems to have two separate scenarios for tongues in mind. The one is in the setting of the gathered church and in which he insists that there be alternating interpretation. The second is in private exercise. It seems that it is in the private exercise of 'tongues' that 'blessing and giving of thanks' is in view.

How would you see 'blessing and giving of thanks' being accomplished with the spirit/tongues? Keep asking if I am not making myself clear.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/7/18 2:25Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Yesh,

I, too, currently go to a Vineyard and have experienced some of the same thing you talk about. I happen to like it (most of the time), but I think I do see your point and think that the Scripture reference you mention is relevant to the situation.

Here's how I understand it at this point...

A key verse in understanding this is verse 1 Cor. 14:30, which is just two verses down from the one you have referenced (v. 28). It gives us some insight into what Paul was thinking about in this passage.

1 Cor. 14:30
"But if a revelation is made to another [i]who is seated[/i], let the first keep silent."

Now, I don't know if this can be proven, but here's what I get out of that verse. Let's ask ourselves this question- why did Paul specifically make mention of one "who is seated?"

Contemplating that, I believe that the practice in the Corinthian church was that if someone had a prophecy, they would stand up to give it. This practice does seem to make sense. We often do the same thing today even in our secular culture (at least my culture in southern California). In a public meeting, like a company lunch meeting at a workplace, it is a common practice for the one speaking to stand up. I believe that this was how the Corinthian church functioned (at least something like this).

If we read chapter 14 in context, an important disctinction seems to be made between [i]private[/i] and [i]public[/i] speaking. Verse 28 is a prime example of this. How can one "keep silent" and "speak to himself and to God" at the same time?

Is it possible to use a gift like tongues [i]privately[/i] in a public setting? I believe this is what Paul meant in verse 28 when he said, "but if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God" (v. 28).

Let's not foget that "church" here does not refer to a building, it refers to the assembly or gathering of saints.

Also, from my study I don't think "keep silent" is the best translation for the Greek there. The Greek word is "Sigao" (#4601) which means "to keep silent: keep close (secret, silence), hold peace." It comes from the Greek word "Sige" (#4602) which apparantly comes from "Sizo" which literally means "to hiss, i.e. hist or hush, silence."

I am no Greek expert, but it seems clear that this word does not [i]necessarily[/i] mean [i]complete[/i] silence. If it did, why would Paul say, "let him speak to himself and to God"? The word "speak" here literally means "to utter a voice or emit a sound." So would it be possible to "keep completely silent" and "utter a voice or emit a sound" at the same time?

Someone might be thinking, "Paul just means to talk to yourself and God [i]in your head[/i]" without any actual movement of the mouth and tongue. But, from what I can tell, this is not only a strain on the Greek, it also seems a strain on the idea of "tongues" in the first place. Can you "speak in [i]tongues[/i]" without using your [i]tongue[/i]? Perhaps, in a sense, but it does seem to be quite a strain.

But, I can speak in tongues to myself (in secret) in a quiet, hushed, whispered, and basically silent manner. My lips are moving and breath is coming out but I'm not engaging the vocal chords so much (or probably at all). I believe this is what Paul was getting at.

I think what he is saying is when you are having an assembly, don't speak up in tongues unless there's someone to interpret. But you can speak to yourself in tongues quietly all you want.

I think he's contrasting 2 different ways of speaking in tongues. One is speaking up in tongues (probably standing up as well) in the assembly so that the attention of the assembly is focused on you. The other way being quietly and hushed to yourself, which is only intended for private use.

I don't know if people are ever praying in tongues "over" somebody else or if they are really praying to themselves and to God in tongues at the same time they are praying for others. I've done this many times. I may be focused on a person in prayer for a season (like 5 or 10 mintues) and there may be moments in between where I kind of get back in tune with God by speaking in tongues but it is intended for myself more than the person I am praying for. Though they can hear it, I think Paul is talking more about intention here. I think that tongues spoken for private use in a public gathering is fine unless the persons idea of "private use" is too loud and it becomes a distraction or problem. Then they probably just need to be told to quiet down.

That's my take on it anyway. Obviously there's lots of my own opinion in there. But it does seem clear that the Greek leaves plenty of room for these opinions, and it makes sense to me and it matches my experience.

 2005/7/19 1:17Profile









 Re:

You opinion makes sense.

Phil, thanks for clearing that up.

There have been a few times where id 'speak in tounges silently'. Even in worship, when 'everyone was done worshipping' i was speaking in tounges silently. They saw my lips moving fast, but never heard what i was saying.

Thanks everyone for clearling this all up for me. And Phil for going into the greek in different places.

I love you all, and this was a great 'rebuke', even though you might not take it as that. I was leaning towards the 'human tounges' and about to just be caught into alot of confusion. This goes best with my spirit, always had, but this gives me a stronger biblical foundation.

 2005/7/19 22:04





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