The problem is Greg that they were public in nature and there was no public repentance on your part, in fact quite the opposite, a doubling down of previously geld positions. letter written that were not true in nature, which I refused to send out as you know, and no repentance to Aileen and so on. What people see in our public lives and their perceptions of us, especially on a forum like this where most I would submit, have never met either of us. Now you might want to cast me as the guy who is trying to tear down the Church, which you have done consistently, but then I have told you my position time and again on leadership privately. You choose not to accept that and present it as something different.

I have no bitterness toward you at all Greg, I just made the mistake if not taking it publicly after confronting you privately. It is one thing for you to repent to me privately about your previous positions on the church fathers and how you acknowledged that you acted vindictively towards me in the examples I gave, it is quite another to repent publicly. I understand you have a persona that you are trying to maintain, but the most important thing for anyone who professes to be in Christ is that what people see is actually who we are. Of all things the Lord had the harshest words for hypocrites. For example, because you were challenged on another forum by older wiser men, and you were rebuked in what you were sharing, rather than humbling yourself you doubled down and made the Chan sermon your featured sermon. This is pure pride and an unwillingness to listen to older wiser saints. I pray that the Lord would humble you in your own sight Greg. It is a tough business to be broken, but if you allow yourself to be broken then you will not be like a wave tossed on the sea, repenting of church fathers and your obsession with them, then going back again to it. I will be praying for your breakthrough, pride and desire for position and the praise of men is a difficult one, but if you humble yourself before God and men, you will have your breakthrough and the Holy Spirit, that you have quenched time and again, will be able to lead your life......bro Frank

Greg, I think you know that I have no requirement that you or anyone believes exactly as I do. I can say that I have never targeted anyone and taken malicious actions against them. Your continual insistence on the importance of submitting to the established church and its leadership and authority is extremely problematic. I think your own view of yourself is problematic.

You cast anyone who disagrees with the established church as rebellious and an enemy. This Chan sermon is just the perfect example of how you feel I believe. The notion that saints would bow to men like Bickle and others is quite scary, a a couple of other older brothers, good men in the Lord, pointed out to you ( I am not counting me in that number) You choose to not even respond to them. If I am being honest, I believe you attach way too much importance to what other people think about you and to what you think about yourself.

I know that this will come across as two dimentional words and may sound harsh but it is not written in that fashion. I bear no ill will toward you, I do feel a deep sadness. My guess is that we will never agree on these issues. We are interacting because of the thread in Facebook.
Ecumenicalism, what Chan and others are teaching, is not new. It was wrong when it started and it is wrong now. God's people will be united, just as stated in John 17 by Jesus, but there will also arise a great whore church which will be a counterfeit unity. The Body of Christ will be united in Truth in the midst of persecution, and our most likely persecutors will be those in authority from the established church.

Chan already laid some of the groundwork by saying those who reject leaders like Bickle and others are in danger of being killed by God. Greg, you know enough about church history to know that the vast majority of saints were persecuted, tortured and killed by those in established church authority who, in their sickness and blind religiousity believed they were carrying out the will of God against the rebellious ( those who rebelled against their authority) We are not going to convince each other of anything I am sure of that, but consider the warning verse brother Anton gave you very carefully. Just because Bickle and others call certain men prophets ( and most of us know about the Kansas City prophets and the drunkeness and making women strip naked} does not mean that they are.

I added the extra verses that Anton left out, to give it more context. Listen to what happens to those who allow false prophets to exist in their midst, only those who do not hold to that wicked doctrine are spared. I council you not to be part of those who allow the false prophet and encourage others to bow their knees to them as Chan just did..........bro Frank

“Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.” (Revelation 2:20)

And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, AS MANY AS HAVE NOT THIS DOCTRINE, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
(Rev 2:21-24)

When a person says a false thing concerning the things of God we can call the teaching false. We don't condemn the brother involved. When a person holds themselves out as a teacher and teaches fundamental doctrines wrong, we can call them a false teacher and yet they remain a brother, rebuking them but loving them through it. When a person teaches false foundational things, holds themselves out as a teacher and they do so for false reasons ( money, selfish ambition, to draw God's people to themselves to fall away or damn their souls) , then they are the kinds of false teachers that are beasts, mists, and stand personally condemned along with their teaching. These aren't and never were brothers.

Perhaps, the debate is about who falls in the third kind of teaching/teacher. However, some people hear condemnation when they hear otherwise valid but strongly worded criticisms in the the first two kinds of false teaching situations. They don't like the tone more than they disagree with the message. Strong feelings and expressions about teachings that seem at the same time to lack the compassion and positive tone that people like or prefer to hear tend to sound like condemnation of the person to the listener or reader.

In some cultures, or in some individuals' personal history, any kind of direct strongly worded criticism, commentary or confrontation is deemed a personally condemning attack. ( Asia, England ) In some cultures ( America), being direct is considered more respectful and honest towards the person being challenged. We mustn't allow cultural preferences, however, to drive our personal interpretations of the speaker's intents. It seems we see a lot of this misreading of people's personal compassion for other people when we read strong criticism of beliefs. Being sure of peoples' intentions before criticizing those intentions, especially publicly, is the key. That admonition works for both sides of a disagreement.

Lastly, people should be aware that our own definitions and predispositions to what compassion looks like are most often not the gauge of spiritual Biblical compassion. Reading the writings of Paul ( Corinthians, Galatians ), James, the writer of Hebrews, and Jesus' letters to the 7 churches, His conversations with His own apostles ( Matthew 10 and the parable of the unfaithful servant, John 15 ) and to His followers ( the Gospels) are evidence of that. Those writings to God's saints are most severe in certain cases and many passages and there is no getting around that by selective reading, interpretation or memory. The need for truth in potentially dangerous spiritual situations and conditions
and the numbers of times that people have been previously warned about errant teaching or behavior often will rightly influence the tone of the message delivery. This is absolutely Biblical.

_________________
Robert