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UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1032
Oregon

 Re:

Nigel, you are forgetting the underlying premise of this sister's Pre-trib rapture argument. She is saying if Christ allows his body the church to go through the tribulation, he is committing violence against his body..just as a troubled person would cut, abuse his body or be suicidal.

Are you seeing this?

This kind of thinking, if it's consistent will reject the cross of Jesus as an act of violence on the Father's part, and take the blood and suffering out of Christianity..

We already see many churches who have gone down that path.



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Fifi

 2018/8/14 10:42Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1162
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Nigel: my argument was pure ad populum argument, it was not a logical assessment, it could not stand up when critiqued, nor could you use it to defeat even the worst argument for a pre-trib rapture.

My point is, pretribulatonalism focuses on getting the Church out before God's wrath falls on the world.
But God's wrath is already being and has been poured out in the world in various ways. One of the major faults of a pre-trib teaching is to dismiss any wrath or judgment from God as merely 'the devils work', but when we are all gone, then God will act.

This premise is false, yet pre-trib grounds it assumptions on this very premise. It's surrounded by scripture texts and with emotional or exhortative preaching, yet at the end of the day what I am hearing is God's not judging or pouring out wrath now, only later will it come.

It is true some eschatological events concerning the wrath of God have not yet been fulfilled, but that does not validate the aforementioned premise nor does it validate the doctrine itself.
This premise is exploited and used to sooth worried saints into believing their troubles will never go beyond the discomforts of a 'normal life'.
We are exhorted to 'look up', yet, do not saints in horrible persecutions 'look up'?


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Marvin

 2018/8/14 11:48Profile
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1032
Oregon

 Re:


Brother Marvin, may I ask you a personal question?
Why do I find myself grabbing the dictionary every time you post something?
No offense, I was half kidding 😊


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Fifi

 2018/8/14 13:50Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1162
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Fifi: years ago a good brother in the Lord once told me "Marv, you need to gain a better vocabulary than the 6 words you use again and again, it will make for better preaching"

So, I took it to heart and try to add vocabulary.

now-a-days you just say "ok google" and get your definition. I had to look it up.


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Marvin

 2018/8/14 14:11Profile
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1032
Oregon

 Re:

Well, Marvin

What will make for better preaching?

We should start a whole new thread for that question?
Don't you think that better preaching should aim at reaching your hearer'soul and mind. And since most people are iliterate in this age in which we live, in order to reach their mind you really need to use a language they understand. As for reaching their souls you only need the unction from above.

I find your posts so annointed and edifying, but sometimes long and heady.

If good preaching needed vocabulary, as this well meaning brother advised you, then poor Peter the fisherman couldn't have had a chance.

You and Katz(my favorite preacher) would make good friends in heaven.






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Fifi

 2018/8/14 14:34Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1162
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


In a very short assessment, the ungodly will suffer the wrath of God, the Church will suffer persecution from the ungodly. This simple premise is found through-out scripture. When the ungodly suffer in the final days due to the wrath of God, the Church will suffer by reason of the persecution initiated and controlled by the Beast.

The Church may endure both the harsh realities of God's wrath toward the wicked and endure the harsh realities of keeping the faith in the face or terrible persecution.

God's people have suffered along with the wicked, God's people have been spared even while the wicked perish, both of these scenarios will play out in various ways in the last days. There's one body, one Bride, One Chosen people and they are those who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. It is these who are written in the Lambs book of Life and it is these that will overcome the beast, the false prophet and all the ungodliness present in the world.

A rapture makes a distinction between the bride and the 'tribulation saints' where there is none. The Rapture removes part of the body while yet declaring the remainder will suffer. All is relegated to a very short span of time and in that time various literal interpretations of Revelation must come into play. Yet, what is paramount in the Christian faith is absent in the teachings of the rapture. Bearing one anothers burdens...nope were getting out. Preaching the gospel to the lost...nope were getting out, demonstrating the love of God in the worst situations...nope were getting out.

All because we are not appointed to wrath. Yet the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness...even the homosexual being given over to his lusts is God's wrath and we feel it, read a news report and see that God's wrath is present and we are still here and must endure their lies, endure their political positioning, endure their plans to proselytize our children, endure their public displays of rebellion to God and Church. This is only one aspect of wrath in action and we are right in the middle of it.

The red scourge in China, the inquisition in Europe, the genocide in Africa...suffering in the body of Christ has never been predicated by the announcement of 'wrath upon the wicked', it was predicated upon the sinful nature of man "they will kill you and think they are doing God a service"

It is because of these things I refuse the rapture as a means to elude the Cross as Fifi said and give false hope of deliverance when the scriptures declare explicitly otherwise.


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Marvin

 2018/8/14 14:38Profile
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1032
Oregon

 Re:

//nope we're getting out. //

I like that!
Not as spiritual advise but a style of speech.


//In a very short assessment,//

😂


Edited)


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Fifi

 2018/8/14 14:52Profile
drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 691
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

If I could I would forever eradicate this idea of "comfortable christianity" from peoples minds.

If you truly give your life to Jesus, you are not promised an easy path. In fact, you are promised rejection, persecution, trials, tests etc. If you want to live for Jesus, the devil will be as mad as a hornet; he will throw everything he's got at you.

I spend most days alone. I have no friends, no one I can confide in. I try my best to tell others about Jesus, but most times they laugh at me or throw it back in my face. I am gossiped about, ridiculed. Just recently someone called me a "crazy old man" at work (I'm 32! go figure); last week someone tried to get me fired for evangelizing at work. Sometimes it seems like satan floods my mind with depressing, discouraging thoughts. (But I'm not in prison being beaten so I guess it's not really suffering.)

But in spite of all that, Jesus is with me. I feel His presence; His incredible love has kept me alive.


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Nigel Holland

 2018/8/14 16:30Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4526


 Re:

I will confess that I still lean toward a belief that the Lord will gather His bride before the wrath of God is poured out upon the entire world. Of course, I would never declare that leaning to be a doctrinal truth.

I don't think that God will pour out His wrath upon the believers or unbelievers alike. If God saved Noah and Lot from the judgment of God pouring out around them, then I believe that the same will likely be the case with the Bride of Christ when God is pouring out the trumpet and bowl judgments upon the entire Earth.

That said...

I don't believe that Christians are free from suffering.
I don't believe that Christians are free from tribulation.
I don't believe that Christians are free from persecution.

I do believe that persecution of the Bride will increase exponentially as we approach the coming of the Lord.
I also believe that believers are persecuted terribly around the world for their faith in Christ Jesus.

However, I also have come to the point where I don't think that I will ever know with absolute certainty the manner by which the end with come.

In fact, I believe that the focus of the Church is wrong. The Church should not focused upon mapping out the end times with absolute declarations or timetables but in preparing believers to be ready -- ready to die or suffer for the cause of Christ -- at any time.

When pastors teach about the end times, I don't think that they should make doctrinal absolutes about it (other than those truths that are clear even to children who read the Word of God). Instead of teaching "no rapture" or "yes rapture," perhaps Biblical teachers should introduce various views by which some think that the end will come about.

The key, of course, is to be prepared and to never lose focus of Jesus Christ -- especially in the midst of trials and tribulations.


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Christopher

 2018/8/14 20:18Profile
SteveHale
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Joined: 2007/2/15
Posts: 198
NSW Australia

 Re:

.


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Steve

 2018/8/14 22:08Profile





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