Poster | Thread | UntoBabes Member

Joined: 2010/8/24 Posts: 1035 Oregon
| Re: | | I think we insist on fooling ourselves that the problem of our age is that we condemn ourselves too much, when in fact if we have an ioda of honesty we would admit that the problem is liscence and the absence of the fear of God.
Some would dare to say that we don't need revivals of the past with all that overemphasis on holiness and conviction of sin. What we really need instead is revival of the realization of our sonship.
How foolish to think that sonship preceds repentance and humiliation or that glory preceds the cross..
_________________ Fifi
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| 2018/8/9 13:49 | Profile | Heydave Member

Joined: 2008/4/12 Posts: 1306 Hampshire, UK
| Re: | | Hi Fifi,
Thank you for asking.
First, please do not misunderstand me, I'm not at all suggesting that we should not judge ourselves and that God will not judge sin in general. Yes that is a general principle that we should and He will. But yes I am saying that in this letter of Paul to the Corinthian church he is saying that God was judging them specifically for abusing the Lord's supper and not discerning (recognising) the Lord's body. This is the context of why they were being judged here, for this specific sin.
My point is that we should be judging ourselves all the time and there is nothing particularly unique (in this regard) about the Lord's supper in this. Jesus told us that before we go to worship, if we have anything against a brother, we must first be reconciled to our brother before we offer our worship. You rarely hear anyone say at the beginning of a service, now please examine yourself to see if there is any sin before we begin our worship. Then there is Ananias and Sapphira who were judged by God and no mention they were partaking of the bread and wine when they lied.
No, my concern is that we over emphasize and misapply the judgement we read here in 1 Corinthians and (probably because of a wrong mystical/superstitious view of the actual bread and wine elements) put people into a wrong thinking and fleshly fear, rather than draw them to Christ in a Godly reverent fear. I have no problem with the Lord's supper being a reverent time and even taking time to reflect and judge ourselves. It is the reading of a passage about a judgement for extreme abuse of the Lord's supper and applying it to every Lord's supper I have a problem with. If the context is explained then that would be fine, but it never is in my experience.
Wrong doctrine leads to wrong practice and I have witnessed churches where they have abstained from taking the bread and wine for a matter of months because there was disunity in the church. So rather than get things right, they carried on, but I guess they thought that if they did not take the bread and wine (I mean the whole church) they would not get judged and die. This is crazy! Sin is sin and will result in judgement if not repented of, Lord's supper or not. _________________ Dave
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| 2018/8/9 16:11 | Profile | UntoBabes Member

Joined: 2010/8/24 Posts: 1035 Oregon
| Re: | |
Wholeheartedly agree. Thanks so much for this explanation, Dave.
_________________ Fifi
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| 2018/8/9 16:38 | Profile | AbideinHim Member

Joined: 2006/11/26 Posts: 5185 Louisiana
| Re: | | Amen! So why when scripture is put forth (in context) is it refuted by posting the teachings of men. Men are fallible, no matter how good these men might be.
Dave, Yes brother, men are fallible, and you are fallible, so you believe that your interpretation of the scriptures concerning communion are correct, and Tozer, Andrew Murray, and Derek Prince are in error.
I believe that communion is a communion with the Body of Christ (church), and the literal Body and Blood of Christ.
“Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?” (1Corinthians 10:16).
The cup of wine is not the blood of Christ, but when we drink the cup by faith in the blood of Jesus, we are spiritually By rightly drinking the wine partaking of the life that is in the precious blood.
For me receiving communion in the right way, more than a remembrance, but a participation in the Body and Blood of Christ makes the truth of the Body and Blood a greater reality.
_________________ Mike
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| 2018/8/10 7:24 | Profile | havok20x Member

Joined: 2008/9/14 Posts: 980 Pineville, LA
| Re: | | Sometimes I think we lose our minds when we read the Bible. I like context. I am a staunch proponent of keeping things in the context. But 1 Corinthians is not a book addressing only the Corinthian believers of that century. It applies, in its entirety, to us today. Did Jesus intend for that passage to apply to anyone other than the Corinthians? All scripture is good for training in righteousness.
There is nothing mystical about the bread or wine. I agree with this wholeheartedly. However, this is not merely a ritual--Jesus established 0 rituals. Baptism, the Lord's Supper, Church order, Church Offices, the means of Salvation, and everything else that Jesus established are spiritual matters. They affect us spiritually.
The kind of thinking that relegates the Lord's Supper and Baptism to mere symbolism also allows for people to be converted and never partake in those events at all. While I don't believe either to be necessary for salvation, we rob people of grace and worship and closeness to the Lord when we ascribe those events as only symbolic.
I thank God that when I take the Lord's supper, it is both a sombre/joyous occasion. It is incredibly worshipful, and if I were to be honest, probably my favorite mode of worship. Do I think the wine is blood. No. Do I think if it is grape juice that I've done something wrong. No. Do I think the bread or cracker is flesh. No. The spiritual even occurs within me and within the greater congregation as we all partake together. It drives us to unity as we are all experiencing the same thing with our One Lord. |
| 2018/8/10 8:32 | Profile | TMK Member

Joined: 2012/2/8 Posts: 6650 NC, USA
| Re: | | Amen Havok.
If I remember hearing Art Katz correctly he had a little “communion kit” that held the elements and he took communion every morning privately along with reading his “Psalm of the day.”
One of the most meaningful, worshipful and prophetic experiences I have ever experienced was an intimate communion taken with a small group that I used to pray with on Saturday mornings. We arrived to pray and unbeknownst to us one of the guys arrived early and arranged communion in the room where we prayed. As each of us entered the room he gave us a hug and said “there is a place prepared for you.”
It still gives me goosebumps writing this. _________________ Todd
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| 2018/8/10 10:00 | Profile | Gloryandgrace Member

Joined: 2017/7/14 Posts: 1165 Snoqualmie, WA
| Re: | | A couple of things...
"teachings of men" There's plenty of that out there, but to relegate anything that runs counter to our own private understanding of things as 'teachings of men' is immature. If that were the case, literally every post made on this website could be deemed 'teachings of men' and therewith all that is written can be dismissed as useless unbiblical nonsense. Do you all really think that everything you say and others say is just 'teachings of men'?
Foxes book of Martyrs has a lot of testimony regarding the persecution and death of many a saint because of the doctrine of transubstantiation. But behind transubstantiation there is a greater and more substantial cause for the death of the saints. That being it took a special priest with special powers to perform the Mass and say the right words whereby the elements would transform into the actual body and blood of Christ. To invalidate transubstantiation is to invalidate the necessity of a special priesthood...which also became a main tenant of the reformation and it invalidated the necessity of papal power to confer authority upon the priests. The false doctrine was only the symptom, the real cause was the usurping of men over the place of God.
Point is, behind errors lay causes and they are not recognized by quick dismissals of others simply because understandings are different. You see, if were simply a doctrinal perspective...no one need die over perspective, but when it comes to power, position, ego, pride...then it's no longer opinion but a fight to keep what you believe is yours by right.
_________________ Marvin
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| 2018/8/10 11:00 | Profile | Gloryandgrace Member

Joined: 2017/7/14 Posts: 1165 Snoqualmie, WA
| Re: | | excerpt from Foxes book of Martyrs, Richard Sharpe.
"Neighbors, bear me record that yonder idol (pointing to the altar) is the greatest and most abominable that ever was; and I am sorry that ever I denied my Lord God!" Notwithstanding the constables were ordered to apprehend him, he was suffered to go out of the church; but at night he was apprehended and carried to Newgate. Shortly after, before the chancellor, denying the Sacrament of the altar to be the body and blood of Christ, he was condemned to be burned by Mr. Dalby. He was burnt the seventh of May, 1558, and died godly, patiently, and constantly, confessing the Protestant articles of faith.With him suffered Thomas Hale, shoemaker, of Bristol, who was condemned by Chancellor Dalby. These martyrs were bound back to back.
And if that testimony is not strong enough, allow Mrs Prest to show you what it means to follow Christ at the cost of everything.
Bishop. I promise you, you are a jolly Protestant. I pray you in what school have you been brought up? Mrs. Prest. I have upon the Sundays visited the sermons, and there have I learned such things as are so fixed in my breast, that death shall not separate them. B. O foolish woman, who will waste his breath upon thee, or such as thou art? But how chanceth it that thou wentest away from thy husband? If thou wert an honest woman, thou wouldst not have left thy husband and children, and run about the country like a fugitive. Mrs. P. Sir, I labored for my livingl; and as my Master Christ counselleth me, when I was persecuted in one city, I fled into another. B. Who persecuted thee? Mrs. P. My husband and my children. For when I would have them to leave idolatry, and to worship God in heaven, he would not hear me, but he with his children rebuked me, and troubled me. I fled not for whoredom, nor for theft, but because I would be no partaker with him and his of that foul idol the Mass; and wheresoever I was, as oft as I could, upon Sundays and holydays. I made excuses not to go to the popish Church. B. Belike then you are a good housewife, to fly from your husband the Church. Mrs. P. My housewifery is but small; but God gave me grace to go to the true Church. B. The true Church, what dost thou mean? Mrs. P. Not your popish Church, full of idols and abominations, but where two or three are gathered together in the name of God, to that Church will I go as long as I live. B. Belike then you have a church of your own. Well, let this mad woman be put down to prison until we send for her husband. Mrs. P. No, I have but one husband, who is here already in this city, and in prison with me, from whom I will never depart. Some persons present endeavoring to convince the bishop she was not in her right senses, she was permitted to depart. The keeper of the bishop's prisons took her into his house, where she either spun worked as a servant, or walked about the city, discoursing upon the Sacrament of the altar. Her husband was sent for to take her home, but this she refused while the cause of religion could be served. She was too active to be idle, and her conversation, simple as they affected to think her, excited the attention of several Catholic priests and friars. They teased her with questions, until she answered them angrily, and this excited a laugh at her warmth. "Nay," said she, "you have more need to weep than to laugh, and to be sorry that ever you were born, to be the chaplains of that whore of Babylon. I defy him and all his falsehood; and get you away from me, you do but trouble my conscience. You would have me follow your doings; I will first lose my life. I pray you depart." "Why, thou foolish woman," said they, "we come to thee for thy profit and soul's health." To which she replied, "What profit ariseth by you, that teach nothing but lies for truth? how save you souls, when you preach nothing but lies, and destroy souls?" "How provest thou that?" said they. "Do you not destroy your souls, when you teach the people to worship idols, stocks, and stones, the works of men's hands? and to worship a false God of your own making of a piece of bread, and teach that the pope is God's vicar, and hath power to forgive sins? and that there is a purgatory, when God's Son hath by His passion purged all? and say you make God and sacrifice Him, when Christ's body was a sacrifice once for all? Do you not teach the people to number their sins in your ears, and say they will be damned if they confess not all; when God's Word saith, Who can number his sins? Do you not promise them trentals and dirges and Masses for souls, and sell your prayers for money, and make them buy pardons, and trust to such foolish inventions of your imaginations? Do you not altogether act against God? Do you not teach us to pray upon beads, and to pray unto saints, and say they can pray for us? Do you not make holy water and holy bread to fray devils? Do you not do a thousand more abominations? And yet you say, you come for my profit, and to save my soul. No, no, one hath saved me. Farewell, you with your salvation." During the liberty granted her by the bishop, before-mentioned, she went into St. Peter's Church, and there found a skilful Dutchman, who was affixing new noses to certain fine images which had been disfigured in King Edward's time; to whom she said, "What a madman art thou, to make them new noses, which within a few days shall all lose their heads?" The Dutchman accused her and laid it hard to her charge. And she said unto him, "Thou art accursed, and so are thy images." He called her a whore. "Nay," said she, "thy images are whores, and thou art a whore-hunter; for doth not God say, 'You go a whoring after strange gods, figures of your own making? and thou art one of them.'" After this she was ordered to be confined, and had no more liberty. _________________ Marvin
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| 2018/8/10 11:33 | Profile | UntoBabes Member

Joined: 2010/8/24 Posts: 1035 Oregon
| Re: | | Quote //You see, if were simply a doctrinal perspective...no one need die over perspective, but when it comes to power, position, ego, pride...then it's no longer opinion but a fight to keep what you believe is yours by right.//
Thank you, Marvin for pointing that out.
I guess I will dare to ask this. Does the death of a martyr for his or her stand for a certain doctrine necessarily and automatically validate that that doctrine is correct?
If someone believes with his whole heart that a certain doctrine is false, to him it is false. It would be violation of conscience and a denial of Christ for safety' sake to embrace what he knows to be false. But for those who do not believe it to be false, but rather are wholeheartedly convinced it is true and biblical. Are they in danger of violating conscience and denying Christ?
There were people who believed and died a martyr' s death for their stand on infant baptism, yet we have to this day people who still believe in infant baptism who we have no doubt are children of God. Yes, infant baptism is false, but to those who believe it is okay. Are they in danger of violating their conscience and denying christ, and therefore on their way to hell?
I, for one stand on middle ground when it comes to the Lord's supper. I do not believe as the Catholics that something magical happen to the elements, that regardless of the heart condition of the partaker, he will receive cleansing along with the bread and wine. On the other hand, I do not believe that it is merely symbolic. I believe that just as with the woman who by Faith touched the hem of Jesus garment and was healed while many others who crowded, pushed him were not..
So, here also, the faith of the partaker can make the difference between mere bread and wine or the cleansing power of the broken body and shed blood of the Lord.
And no, I do not believe that faith creates reality. I simply believe that faith receives the promise.
_________________ Fifi
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| 2018/8/10 12:44 | Profile |
| Re: | | To be fair Havok, Dave and I both stated that good men were involved in the established practices of the church, no one mentioned baptism, not sure why you threw that in there, but since you mentioned it, baptism became a horrendous tradition of men whereby they departed from the Scriptures and baptized babies and burned those at the stake who did not. I am very sure that people have felt wonderful and close to God as they performed this ritual on their children. What one feels has nothing to do with the Word. If that were the case then charismatics all over the world who are "slain in the Spirit," or barking like dogs must be correct because they feel wonderfully close to God while they do it.
Anyone ever wonder why there was never any sacrament of washing each others feet as the Lord commended that we do? We pick and choose obviously. Bottom line, there has been no bigger ritual instigated by men and there were more people killed over this particular ritual than any other, even more than the killing of those who rejected infant baptism. I have no doubt that good men have baptized babies, they were wrong. I have no doubt they felt wonderfully close to God while they baptized their babies, they were wrong. We stand upon the Word and yes indeed what Paul wrote to the Corinthians absolutely applies to us all right down through the ages to us today. Do we practice what was taught in this chapter? How about the next chapter about the gifts or the 14th chapter about how we gather. All of this has been replaced by the traditions of men and men like it so.................bro Frank |
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