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HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3162


 Re:

"Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases; Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies; Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's." - Psalm 103:1-5

 2018/8/20 17:00Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
How do I discern when sickness is judgment form the Lord, as in the case with the Corinthians? How do I make that call? If I took anyone, I could find SOMETHING that I could pin the blame on, but I know that isn't the way we should practice discernment.

I know that there are men, such as Epaphroditus in Philippians 2 who were sick, but it was not from judgment. The man nearly died, but was healed by the Lord. Paul told the Philippians to hold him in honor because he nearly died for the sake of the Gospel. How does on discern that as well?

I am asking this legitimately, not to prove any points.



Havok: I do not find sickness in the NT as judgement from the Lord. I do see death in two cases, namely Herod and Anannias and Saphira. I am not sure I totally understand all that is going on with these two cases, but I see them in scripture.

I do see sickness, many times, as a result of spiritual causes and not simply physiological causes. But I don't think sickness due to spiritual causes is judgement from God. It is surrender to or yielding to the law of sin and death. In other words, the person has opened himself up to the corruption of sin by being disobedient, rebellious, etc.. If this goes too far, one could even invite demonic activity in his life.

This is why Wigglesworth, I believe, said what he said. If we would die to self, surrender to God, and live lives of obedience, we would close the door to the enemy who comes to steal, kill, and destroy.

Discerning this is also something that comes through intimacy with God and the working of the Holy Spirit. We cannot discern this psychologically or intellectually or emotionally. It comes as we learn to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit. I guess you migth call it the exercise of the gifts of the Spirit, word of knowledge or discerning of spirits.


_________________
Travis

 2018/8/21 13:43Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Observation: First hand witness.

Faithful Pentecostal woman.
Weighs an easy 400 lbs
Diabetes, heart trouble, high blood pressure, dizziness, food cravings, lack of concentration. Unable to move or walk easily. Hip problems.

Pentecostal solution:
1. Rebuke generational curses, breaking them in the name of Jesus.
2. Rebuking demonic strongholds.
3. Praying for a miraculous healing for blood pressure and dizziness.

Elephant in the room: The woman eats plenty of icecream, burgers, gravies, breads, cakes, soda.



Marvin: So true brother...So true.


_________________
Travis

 2018/8/21 13:44Profile
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3162


 Re:

Quote:
I do not find sickness in the NT as judgement from the Lord



"For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world." - 1 Corinthians 11:30-32

 2018/8/21 15:10Profile
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3162


 Re:

Quote:
Quote:
Observation: First hand witness.

Faithful Pentecostal woman.
Weighs an easy 400 lbs
Diabetes, heart trouble, high blood pressure, dizziness, food cravings, lack of concentration. Unable to move or walk easily. Hip problems.

Pentecostal solution:
1. Rebuke generational curses, breaking them in the name of Jesus.
2. Rebuking demonic strongholds.
3. Praying for a miraculous healing for blood pressure and dizziness.

Elephant in the room: The woman eats plenty of icecream, burgers, gravies, breads, cakes, soda.


Marvin: So true brother...So true.



Be careful of "elephants" for we do not truly know the cause and effect of that which is happening in the life of another. Only God knows. It may be her problems are the result of her trusting the doctors instead of God.

 2018/8/21 15:21Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1162
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


HeartSong:

My post was not intended to be harsh or without compassion.

What I am expressing is the very clear and obvious signs are meant to be considered first. The 'why' as to her eating is another matter, but the 'what's she is eating and the quantity of her eating made her gluttonous in character and obese in appearance. The resulting poor health is the effect.

If you over-spiritualize people such as this, you do them no favors at all and in fact you give place to the devil and give place to sin by the mere fact when it is clearly recognizable it is ignored.

I've seen this in regards to weight, in regards to pornography, in regards to worldliness, in regards to gossip.
Each of those sins have their manifestations, ignoring the obvious when it is clearly seen says something about ourselves too, we dare not reproach them because in doing so we reproach ourselves who are doing the same things.

In terms of healing, when sin is the causation, what would Jesus have us to do? Would he not have us judge righteously and seek to help remove the specks from our brothers eye? Of course he would.

But back to your 'why' = cause and effect, the why could be addressed too, but to leave the 'bad eating habits' out of good counsel seems pseudo-spiritual not truly godly.

Im not saying "Well sister glutton here needs to repent and get out those celery sticks instead of licorice sticks".
I hope you recognize I am not asserting embarrassment or crass speaking to someone who is in a bad spot.
Gal 6 "ye which are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of meekness". So I counsel the manner as well as the content to help.


_________________
Marvin

 2018/8/21 15:41Profile
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3162


 Re:

But there is no meekness in your words . . .

 2018/8/22 2:58Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5587
NC, USA

 Re:

Marvin said he would not use harsh or crass language if speaking face to face with the person. Don’t you believe him?


_________________
Todd

 2018/8/22 7:58Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1162
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:


Hi Heartsong: We are speaking in terms of discussion, counsel, observation and past experiences. I am not attempting to relate in terms of compassionate counsel.

I've been guilty of so many things in my own life, the last thing I wanted was for someone to slap the snot out of me because I got caught with my sins showing.

I want to be told the truth, but I don't need a spanking. I would not deliver to others what I do not want myself.

Discussion boards are so 1 dimensional so when I speak I may come across clinical or harsh, but my heart is not that way towards a sinful brother...because I am that sinful brother more often than I should be.

Someone that has truly had to remove a log from his own eye knows what it's like to own that log as my own sinning. Those who have helped me most have been kind in delivering the ugly truth of my sinning and the good counsel to repent and remove it.


_________________
Marvin

 2018/8/22 11:24Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1162
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re: NOT worthy


I fully believe sickness and afflictions come by way of sins. Whether you answer in terms of cause and effect or in terms of spiritual obedience/disobedience there is one great reason to hope.

Jesus heals and delivers even when we have not fully repented, or didn't even understand what we were doing.
He heals even when we are ignorant of the most blatant sins and failures and he delivers even when we deserve every bit of our suffering.

Jesus mercy and kindness trumps our sins and his grace abounds where sin is present. We call upon a great Savior and a Great Deliverer. If I were to restrict healing to when "you have fully and totally repented" the hospitals and cemeteries would be filled with millions in a single day. God's kindness is poured out everyday and his love and mercies are new every morning.

I don't count on those I pray for to 'perform' in such a way that they now are candidates for healing. I count on the grace and kindness of Jesus Christ to minister lovingkindness and mercies regardless of past sins.

It's right that we clear away the stumbling blocks that will do us and others harm, that is a righteous and Christian thing to do. But I don't put my faith in human responses, I put my faith God who loves mercy and will bestow it in answer to faith in Him.

For me, it's important to minister in truth and bring light where darkness has prevailed, but this is only part of walking as Jesus walked. He served and was not served in return, he gave and received nothing in return, he fed and in the end the crowds called for his death. The grace of Jesus demonstrated to us is not only to show us he grace toward us, but to demonstrate how we must minister and serve
knowing the human heart is fickle and full of spite. We pray for those who very clearly do not deserve any prayers, we care for those who do not deserve any help. Worthiness in us is never to be associated with God's kind acts toward us. Worthiness is the quality that Jesus owns himself and our prayers and service are based on his worthiness not ours or those we pray for.


_________________
Marvin

 2018/8/22 14:47Profile





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