True or false: If the Church is functioning on all cylinders in a way that is pleasing to God, society will be influenced in a positive way.

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Todd

Todd, the answer is false, patently false. For the first three hundred years, and specifically the first hundred years, I would argue that the Church was firing on all cylinders. And because of that they were hated and to a great degree killed. When the Church is convicting the world and being a witness, the true nature of society is exposed, and its certainly not positive.............bro Frank

Then why in the world do we talk about how revivals like the Great Awakening so positively influenced society? If the Church’s business is not making converts then what should it be doing? I don’t think the mandate of Jesus is to sit back and just let society go to hell in a handbasket. This is apart from any seven mountain mandate which I could care less about.

“Then He said, “What is the kingdom of God like? And to what shall I compare it? It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and put in his garden; and it grew and became a large tree, and the birds of the air nested in its branches.” And again He said, “To what shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.”
Luke 13:18-21

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Todd

Todd writes........

" If the Church’s business is not making converts then what should it be doing?"

Who said that? You dont get to restate the question and morph it into a completely different one, unless you are addressing another post I did not see. It is self evident that the primary role of the saint is to share the good news and make disciples of all nations. Your actual question was when the church is firing on all cylinders is society affected in a positive way. Many times throughout the last two thousand years, "The Church," has been firing on all cylinders and society, far from being impacted in a positive way, reacted in the most negative way imaginable. It is not our job as Christians to worry about society being positive, our role is to share the good news of Jesus no matter how society reacts. If that was the measure, how society reacts or is affected by our message, we would simply cease to share. If someone wants to make the world a better place, they should find a humanist organization, for that is certainly not the Christian mandate. The world hates God and there is enmity between them, it is the Kingdom of God that we are about.............bro Frank

I am obviously missing something here. Aren’t many folks today railing about how the moral decline of particularly western society is due to a powerless and ineffective Church? Wasn’t that Ravenhill’s and Tozer’s primary platform— calling a dead church to repentance?

If they were right about the powerless and ineffective church, wouldn’t it stand to reason that a powerful and effective Church would work to slow the moral decline of society? Why is 2 Chron. 7:14 the rallying cry for revival?

Like I said, I may simply be misunderstanding your overall point.

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Todd

Brother Frank,
So from your view Christians should not be a godly influence in government or any other of what is referred to as the 7 mountains of society. I believe that you stated one time that you don't vote because you are of another kingdom. I pray and vote for good leaders in our nation because I want to see society move from a humanistic worldview to a Christian worldview, which we at one time had in this nation. Unrighteous leaders make unrighteous laws that are against God's kingdom purposes. You are confusing the world, in which satan is the god of, with society as a whole which is made of people in which Christians are a part of. A society will not change with ungodly men being in charge in government, education, and the business realms. But when Christians that understand how the Kingdom of God operates and are moving in Kingdom authority are put in places of influence in any one of these mountains, then the effect of light and salt which we are called to be will expose the darkness and will be a preserving influence on the corruption in these realms of society.

One of the main goals of the Church ought to be the expansion of the Kingdom of God in the earth. The preaching of the gospel into all the nations of the world. So if the Kingdom of God is being expanded, it cannot help but affect our society. It does matter to God what kind of government that we are living under.

God has told us to pray for all of those in authority (government) so that we might live quiet and peaceable lives in all godliness and holiness. This is well pleasing to God, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3,4). God prefers for us to have good government, rather than a dictatorial, oppressive government. As Derek Prince has said: "Bad government hinders the preaching of the gospel. Good government facilitates the preaching of the gospel."

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Mike

Proverbs 29:2
When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked bears rule, the people mourn.

When the righteous are in authority,.... Or "are increased", either in number or in riches, or in power and dominion; are set in high places, and have the exercise of civil government and the execution of the laws in their hands; for the protection of good men in their civil and religious privileges, and for the punishment of evil men; for the encouraging of all that is good, and for the discouraging of everything that is bad;the people rejoice; the whole body of the people, because of the public good; a state is happy under such an administration; everyone feels and enjoys the advantage of it; see 1 Kings 4:20;

but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn; or "groan" , or "will groan", under their tyranny and oppression, and because of the sad state of things; the number of good men is lessened, being cut off, or obliged to flee; wicked men and wickedness are encouraged and promoted; heavy taxes are laid upon them, and exorbitant demands made and cruelty, injustice, and arbitrary power exercised; and no man's person and property safe; see Proverbs 10:11. - J. Gill

When the righteous are in authority; rather, as in Proverbs 28:28, when the righteous are increased; Vulgate, in multiplicatione justorum. When sinners are put away, and the righteous are in the majority. Septuagint, "when the just are commended." When good men give the tone to society and conduct all affairs according to their own high standard, the peoople rejoice; there is general happiness; prosperity abounds, and voices ring cheerfully (Proverbs 11:10; Proverbs 28:12). When the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn; they suffer violence and injustice, and have bitter cause for complaint and lamentation. Pulpit Commentary

Proverbs 14:34
Righteousness exalts a nation, But sin is a disgrace to any people.

Hi Mike,

I have never suggested that someone is wrong to vote, I have given an explanation why I dont vote and so as every man follows his conscience he does well for in these matters we do not answer to each other but to God. Let me ask a question Mike and see if we can get some light on the issue. Do you know how many of the Body of Christ were part of government institutions in the first 300 years of the Church? Surely you can see how radically the Kingdom of God was advancing in the first 300 years yet the general policy and attitude of the Church was non-involvement in Government and the Roman army.

Paul told us in 1 Timothy 2:1-3 to pray for those in authority. Do you know who was in authority when he gave us that command? Do you consider that it was "good?" You see, it does not say God wanted a good government, it says pray for those in authority that we may live in peace which of course is preferable. The Kingdom of God bro Mike is wholly separate and apart from the Kingdoms of the world, all the Kingdoms of the world. There are certainly better kingdoms than others that is for sure and we definately live in one of the better ones. Yet, the bottom line is that there in enmity between God and the world Jas 4:4  Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.............bro Frank

Hi Todd, I think you are missing something since you asked. The State of the Church has a beneficial effect on a decaying world but it is not the reason why men like Tozer and Ravehill sought revival. They were concerned first and foremost with the state of the Body of Christ. It is our right and proper position to have Jesus as our first love. If we lose that then Jesus says that we should regain that at the risk of losing our lampstand. You see, it was about the Body. I suggest Todd that you listen again to Ten Shekels and a shirt and in that sermon you will learn the difference between humanism and following God. Our primary focus should always be to follow hard after God and not the by-product of that. There is a world of difference between wanting to make the world a better place and following hard after God. People from every background want to make the world a better place. There are humanitarian Muslims and humanitarian Hindus and Humanitarian Catholics and so on, but we do not read in the NT about making the world a better or more positive place, unless I am missing something and I would gladly look at any NT Scriptures that you consider allude to that..............bro Frank

Have we gone of topic is this related to the seven mountain mandate movement!

Proverbs 29:2
When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked bears rule, the people mourn.

Savannah is this just using commentaries to expound the one proverb from Soloman. This is a great proverb but the problem is with this is logic.

1. The Early Church suffered three hundred years of persecution, most of the bible was written during times of persecution!

This title has been almost literally copied from Tertullian, who in the year 197 wrote: "The blood [of martyrs] is the seed of Christians". The same idea was already to be found in the mid 2nd century in a speech by an unknown author made to the pagan Diogneto: "Do you not see that [the Christians] thrown to the wild beasts - that they may recant the Lord - do not allow themselves to be beaten? Do you not see that the more they are punished, the more the others increase in numbers?" (7, 7-8). One of Tertullian’s contemporaries was Ippolito Romano, who, during the persecutions organised by Septimius Severus, wrote that a large number of men, attracted to the faith by martyrs, also became God’s martyrs (see Commentary to Daniel, II, 38).

This belief of the first Christians was well-founded, because referring to His redeeming death, Jesus said: "unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains just a grain of wheat; but if it dies, it produces much fruit" (John 12, 24). The martyrs simply follow the path shown by Jesus, who speaking of Himself said: "I am the way, and the truth and the life" (John 14, 6).

2. The idea that if you have a Christian government therefore everything will be fine.

The wrong idea with this is that if you are in a democracy and the people are evil. They are going to vote for a evil dictator.

Josiah in the Bible was a righteous king! Yet most of the people were wicked underneath him, It delayed Gods Judgement for a while but the nation did not turn away, unfortunately if people want a righteous nation then they better start preaching from the streets.

A revival is when people turn back to the bible and not away from it, when you use the word revival you define it as the seven mountain mandate not what a true revival is!

The other stupid idea is that if you change the government the whole society will change as when the next wicked governement come into power it will completely destroy

3. The Greek word for church means called out, the seven mountain movement asks to remain in the world and influence it, it will fail as the world will only change through the power of the gospel


1577. ekklésia Church- Called Out
The word http://biblehub.com/greek/1577.htm

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

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Then why in the world do we talk about how revivals like the Great Awakening so positively influenced society? If the Church’s business is not making converts then what should it be doing? I don’t think the mandate of Jesus is to sit back and just let society go to hell in a handbasket. This is apart from any seven mountain mandate which I could care less about.

“Then He said, “What is the kingdom of God like? And to what shall I compare it? It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and put in his garden; and it grew and became a large tree, and the birds of the air nested in its branches.” And again He said, “To what shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.”
Luke 13:18-21

Todd you quote Luke 13 but the whole Luke 13 is a bit more interesting

You should have continued reading

Luke 13
22 And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.

23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence
ye are:

If you care so much about society go to the streets and preach the Gospel!

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

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Dominic Shiells