| Re: |
I’ve noticed over the years that when well founded saints change their positions on fundamental doctrines, it’s unfortunately the result of an external circumstance they’re trying to resolve/reconcile with the word and when the word (as it is here) is clear beyond any intellectually honest questioning, they simply seek out an alternative meaning to plain, even redundant texts. This practice has been observed to take on a host of forms some of greater extremes than others. One case that occurred with someone very close to me happened as a result of a family member of there’s being tragically and senselessly murdered. The question of their salvation arose rather quickly and while on the surface it appears there’s very little chance as they were actively and unrepentanty living in open sin... I observed the family members each struggle with the revelation of the high probability of their close relative being condemned for eternity, in several cases I was put in very awkward positions thru questions relating to my opinion regarding the matter.
Over time (years) I’ve watched the members each respond differently to this tragedy... the person closest to me has unfortunately changed the most in their positions. Where before there was a healthy acknowledgement of the reality of hell and it’s horrors now it’s been questioned to the point of presently denying its existence-
Interestingly this took place incrementally, and amendments to several other core doctrines were required before they arrived at a place where they could comfortably reject the idea of the existence of hell. For this individual it was easier to change (in their minds) the word of God than it was to accept the consequence of the word relating to their departed loved one. Not surprisingly this individuals faith overall has weakened significantly and their interest in books “about the Bible” that appease these newly acquired doctrines has almost become an addiction. I say addiction because it’s as if a new source of information is required to maintain this position.
As a barber, I’ve witnessed this phenomenon occur for decades as I have personal contact with many people on a recurring basis for years. Recently (over the past decade) I’ve noticed this phenomenon of “changing the word” to fit the circumstance has become ever more frequent. Honestly it has taken quite a toll on me recently as just this week I’ve personally experienced several of these ranging from, homosexuality isn’t a sin- living in a adultry isn’t a sin- fornication isn’t a sin- or that there isn’t a hell to begin with... in each case the individual whom held these beliefs had once held the opposite belief but changed due to someone close to them needing an exception/exemption.
Needless to say my spirit is grieved beyond measure as I encounter these situations. Tho the Lord has me minister patiently and humbly to them they are almost always defensive and usually wind up offended.
This is not to say that everyone whom holds to this doctrine, does so as a result of this type of circumstance,... however from my experience the majority who change from believing in sin/hell etc- to not believing it usually do so in order to avoid accepting the truth as it’s clearly presented in scripture.
| 2018/3/29 23:36||Profile|
| Re: |
Good thoughts Fletcher,I tend to agree with your observations, I have seen the very same. I have had the same kind of conversations, the last one was with my cousin whose mum had died and was not a Christian and neither is she " so your saying my mother is in hell." Not only your mum cousin, but our grandma as well. Homosexuality has caused the same kind of changes in many.
I have to say Todd, you seem to be sympathetic to the Catholic argument of purgatory? Are you? It is true that the Vatican said the Pope words were taken out of context, what was interesting was that all they had to say was that of course the Pope believes in an eternal hell, they did not. This is the same Pope, when asked if Homosexuality was a sin said " who am I to judge." Even if you only have a rudimentary knowledge of Catholicism one would know how preposterous a statement that is from a Pope........bro Frank
| 2018/3/30 0:11|
This world is not my home anymore.
| Re: Pope Francis says there is no hell?|
I dabbled very heavily with Christian universalism (ultimate reconciliation) in the late 1990's to early 2000's. But my dabbling ended when I started teaching Jesus at the jail. I had to leave my opinions at the door, believing and dabbling is one thing but to steer people in that direction is a whole other (Jesus) thing. (If you get my meaning).
About a month ago, I quit a non-denominational church I had been attending for over a year over this very topic: universalism. And then I brought up to a guard at the jail that I had quit this fellows church over this topic and some of the things he said led me to believe that he too believes in this. This "other" gospel has infiltrated the church.
Show me a preacher or teacher who denies hell and I'll show you a powerless man with a dead philosophy that can't bring people to repentance and relationship with Christ.
Brother, you are correct. In the whole year I was there, he never once used the word repent, (edit) he slipped in once that he didn't believe in hell and just kept on preaching, and another time said he didn't believe in the judgment. I know I stayed a year but I was holding out hope! :) (/edit)
When I was into ultimate reconciliation, they would say, "get this special bible or this book to understand." No one loves to read more than I do!! But for someone to tell me I've got to read "another" book (other than the Bible) to understand the real meaning of hell is just nonsensical to me, imho.
| 2018/3/30 5:56||Profile|
| Re: |
No, I don’t believe in purgatory.
| 2018/3/30 8:20||Profile|
| Re: iust like a movie |
To many, hell is just like a movie, it plays on your emotions, but it's just not real!
It gets the same reaction...it's very moving!
But in less than 2 hours it's all done!
| 2018/3/30 8:44||Profile|
| Re: pretty clear... |
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
| 2018/3/30 8:52||Profile|
| Re: |
//And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever//
Judgment against Edom
"For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever." Is. 34
| 2018/3/30 9:03||Profile|
| Re: new motto |
This reminds me of the sign I saw as I drove by a local church building the other day. They had coined a new motto for their bible study series they were starting on the subject of hell.
It read: "Don't Worry Be Happy"
| 2018/3/30 9:16||Profile|
| Re: |
Am I having an out of body experience, or, are we really debating if there is a hell or not here?
| 2018/3/30 9:20||Profile|
| Re: OOBE |
Hey Jude (oops), I mean Bill,
Just jump in and sing along with John and the Lennonites...
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today... Aha-ah...
Maybe after the sing along you'll have a genuine out of body experience!
Don't forget to wear your Sunday best this Easter Sunday!
| 2018/3/30 10:03||Profile|