Hi Jade: I am seeking to explain my point of view and hopefully my interpretation of scripture is consistent with the sum of scripture.

I hope you do not feel I am "explaining away" the texts you quoted. It's important in any study to let all scripture stand, I don't quote some obscure passage on election and attempt to 'check' some passage that seems to negate it.
This is called scripture nullifying...I don't want to do that with you or anyone. Scripture is not pitted against scripture, its usually a long held belief...tied to a dozen other beliefs that once shown errant, we become fretful we have believed everything wrongly.

I am simply introducing an extended view of Justification, righteousness and sanctification. That God has in Christ determined what he would make us in order to display his glory and grace in ages to come.

Insofar as the 1Tim2:3-4 text, the answer is simple ( at least for me) That God has willed all kinds of men ( not every single man or woman) because we have scripture examples of those whom God did nothing to circumvent their fateful demise. God gave them over to destruction, God didn't save the brute-beast men who were to be taken and destroyed, nor is he to be reprimanded or accused of injustice because he can make a vessel unto honor or one unto dishonor.
Judas was with Jesus, yet he is the son of perdition and Jesus WOE was directed at Judas. Jesus knew who would betray him.

In the scriptures, one has to reconcile an important aspect of God's actions; "His willing" is it merely passive like ours, where we hope but cannot accomplish? God has no such impotency.

More directly, John 3:16 for God so loved the world.
Is this to mean every single man and woman born? If it is, how then can they be saved who have no preacher? Rom 10, Where were the preachers of good news during the last 2000 years? In some places there were many, in others, there were none.
My point is, I do not interpret world to mean "every man woman", I interpret it to mean-in context Jesus is telling Nicodemus that God doesn't have love for Israel alone but for the Gentiles too. That Christ lifted up will draw Gentiles and Jews into one great body of believers.
Of the Elect Jews there will be grace and salvation given, of the Elect Gentiles the same.

So the gospel message is declared world wide, grace, forgiveness of sins and mercies are declared world wide without exception...because God has willed all kinds of men be saved. From each tribe, tongue and nation will come forth God's chosen, they believed, they were made sons of God and they will be glorified in the end.

It's important to note, Gentile salvation was a very new thing! Paul preaching to the pagans was a brand new exercise in grace and mercy from God. Therefore it would be right to say succinctly "God wills all men to be saved".

When we preach the gospel to the lost we do not know who is God's elect and who is not, but it's not given to us to know the secret things of God, it is given to us to declare the explicit message of the gospel to all men. So we preach the gospel to every man and we live our lives as a witness to every man, but we do so not because every man is equally to be a recipient of grace, but because in following Jesus as our example he was good to the just and the unjust.
We were not called to save people, we were commission to preach the gospel and make disciples wherever people respond in faith to the message of God.

So, these texts do not impinge on the doctrine of election, nor do they impinge upon the free offer of mercy and grace.

If I require the "world" in John 3:16 to mean every man or woman born, then those who died as pagans long before Christ have a legitimate complaint against God. If I require "world" to include all men and women ever born, I am also saying God has elected everyone to salvation. But there is no scripture that would bear that out, but plenty that would negate it.

We who are born of God are truly given something so great and so outstanding it defies explanation and why God didn't chose others cannot be answered by scripture because scripture does not reveal the secret counsels of God before the foundation of the world. What we know of God's heavenly counsels are those revealed by the apostles and prophets and these do not direct us to the knowledge of God's secret purpose and plans for each individual born on the earth.

_________________
Marvin

No offense please, but I am having a hard time understanding.
But I believe Ron said it right when he quoted,
‘Faith is right responce to revelation ‘

I really believe that, truly sum’s up Abraham’s faith,..
... God spoke / revealed His Word to Abraham,.. He believed God,
he obeyed God. (Abrahamic Faith)

For your consideration too,..
When we were yet in our fleshly nature in God’ timing,
He calls to us by His Grace,... by The Word of God,..
He sends His Grace,... which is Spirit Word: Seed into our hearts,
(His Devine influence upon the heart) (Grace)
...to draw us to God,... (remember how He was drawing
at the first)

The Word says that is not His will that any man shall perish,
... ....but we know that some will not receive Him.... will reject Him.
It is really a ‘will’ thing. Our ‘will’ or His ‘will’ .

In this kingdom , there is a King to rule, Be Lord over us ,but do we say,
‘We will not have this man to reign over me? ‘


The Lord, He is God, The Lord, He is God,... and God is The Spirit / Word,..
........
.........
........submission to God.

Not mine,... but His,
——————
elizabeth

Marvin, so that I can understand where you are coming from, I'd like to ask you how you interpret the verse,"God wills all men to be saved". Do you understand that verse to mean:

1)Gods will is for each and every person to be saved

or

2)Gods will is for all different sorts of people to be saved

In other words, does all mean all or do we need to add a twist so somebody's systematic theological toes don't get stepped on?

-Daniel

Hi Marvin,

(1)

John 3:16

You say: “I do not interpret world to mean ‘every man woman’".

Strong’s NT 2889 kosmos: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

Benson Commentary: God, says he, so loved the world, that is, all men under heaven……

Barnes Notes on the Bible: The world - All mankind. It does not mean any particular part of the world, but man as man - the race that had rebelled and that deserved to die.

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges: loved the world] The whole human race……

Bengel’s Gnomen: the world) [all] the men under heaven……

Pulpit Commentary: For God so loved the world. The Divine love to the whole of humanity in its condition of supreme need



(2)

1 Tim. 2:3-4

You say: “God has willed all kinds of men be saved.”

Marvin, you have added words to scripture. 1 Tim. 2:3-4 says God wills “all men” to be saved. It does NOT say God wills “all kinds of men”.



(3)

You wrote:
“If I require the ‘world’ in John 3:16 to mean every man or woman born, then those who died as pagans long before Christ have a legitimate complaint against God. If I require ‘world’ to include all men and women ever born, I am also saying God has elected everyone to salvation.”

These are separate issues.

The issue here is:
Is Christ’s salvation for ALL MEN or is it NOT for all men? I.e. Are some men predestined by God to go to heaven and others are predestined to go to hell??


(4)

You say:
“If God is truly sovereign and truly almighty and truly loving and all wise, we have no other reason for their lostness in that God had not chosen them to salvation.”


I ask:
Is it God’s doing that many have not believed and therefore are not saved?

Listen!

Mark 4:3-8 --
Listen to this! Behold, the sower went out to sow; as he was sowing, some seed fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate it up. Other seed fell on the rocky ground where it did not have much soil; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of soil. And after the sun had risen, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. Other seed fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked it, and it yielded no crop. Other seeds fell into the good soil, and as they grew up and increased, they yielded a crop and produced thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.”

Mark 4:13-20 –
And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How will you understand all the parables? The sower sows the word. These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them. In a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away. And others are the ones on whom seed was sown among the thorns; these are the ones who have heard the word, but the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. And those are the ones on whom seed was sown on the good soil; and they hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.”

It is Satan, flesh and the world that are the robbers and the thieves of man's salvation and the enemies of faith.

_________________
Jade

Is every man, woman and child from Adam to the last child born this very minute in the world saved? No? Then why the question? If all are to be saved, why is Hell even in the Bible? Is the whole world going to be saved, why then as by fire, a new heaven and new earth.

Last but certainly not least; Is God still in control or are we changing God to be who we want Him to be.

Why did Jesus come, preach salvation, die by crucifixion, preach to the captives, rise the 3 day, return to Heaven after 50 days, present His shed blood to the Father, sit down at His right hand and for us most of all come back born again in the believer that we might be called son' of God joint heirs with Jesus Christ to the Kingdom of God and live with God the Three in One for all eternity?

I see more in the bible not saved than I see saved. The saved according to His purpose and remnant for His Glory.

Praise God I believe; 1 John 5:9-13 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Hath or hath not?

In Christ: Phillip

_________________
Phillip

I want to say that I recognize the heart in both Phillip and Marvin to give all glory to God the Father and our Lord Jesus for the salvation of men.

Let us be mindful of what Paul exhorted the Philippians - “and if we think differently, that too God will make manifest, only let us live up to that which we have attained.” May we avoid allowing these discussions to become wrangling over words. We are to endeavor to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Sincere and devout men, simple pastors and academic scholars, have studied the scriptures and drawn differing conclusions about some of the ways certain aspects of how this great salvation is imparted to men. None of them believe salvation is “of men” or possible apart from God’s grace. We all agree God is the author and finisher, and we agree in large part on many other wonderful truths.

There are significant ways that men differ in their understanding, and it would serve the body of Christ well to avoid simplifications and characterizations. I have spent much time in prayer asking God the Father to fill all involved in this discussion with His spiritual wisdom and understanding. There are certain forms of discussion that ruin the hearer, so we should continue to guard our communication with each other to insure that it is “full of grace and seasoned with salt.”

I would like to stimulate discussion on one aspect of this discussion that has arisen in this thread. We all understand that mankind has been corrupted by sin and every man is “dead in trespass and sin.” However, many godly men do not believe that this state has rendered mankind incapable of hearing, understanding, and receiving the good news by faith. This is an area where men think differently. I understand why those who believe mankind is incapable of hearing and receiving the gospel hold to the idea that only the elect are quickened to life and given the gift of faith. Their view of total depravity naturally leads to this conclusion and their reasoning is consistent with that basis. They see every aspect of “hearing, believing and responding to be God at work in a dead man.

However, other men believe that sinful men can still hear and understand the message of the gospel, and receive it by faith. These men do not believe this robs God of His glory or changes the nature of salvation being a gift of grace. They do not believe that men’s ability to hear, believe, and receive the gospel makes salvation “man centered” or gives any man a claim to boast in his faith.

I want to be brief, but I hope that others will contribute to this aspect of how men have a different understanding in this area. It helps to grant each other the same respect in regards to sincere study and integrity. Condescension, although only a tiny leaven, taints a discussion with pride and the contention which follows.

_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

//but I hope that others will contribute to this aspect of how men have a different understanding in this area. It helps to grant each other the same respect in regards to sincere study and integrity. //

I certainly appreciate your sentiment here, but in some cases the different understandings are so very different and carry so much theological “baggage” that I am not sure they can be reconciled in any fashion. For me personally, for example, it is more than a mere matter of a theological difference, because I see one understanding as slanderous toward God.

_________________
Todd

Dear Alan and Dina Martin,


"I believed, therefore I have spoken".


Anyway, I will leave this thread.

_________________
Jade

mak wrote:

Hi Daniel: My interpretation is "all kinds of men", not every single man or woman born.

As far as theological toes, I will step on yours as fast as I will step on anyone else's. I owe my allegiance to Jesus first when it comes to understanding his word and his will.

My interpretations are my own ( though shared by many).

The reason I believe my interpretation of that text be accurate is, God has an Elect people, therefore God taking occasion by his own choosing of such an elect has left others out.

_________________
Marvin