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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Salvation = obedience?

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JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 2009
Dothan, Alabama

 Salvation = obedience?

Per some of the recent threads, I am wondering what the thoughts, of the saints on SI, are regarding the role (if any) of obedience in relation to salvation/eternal life with Christ?


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Fletcher

 2018/3/14 9:40Profile
Gloryandgrace
Member



Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1165
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re: Salvation = obedience?

Hi Fletcher: I believe in a monergistic salvation. God undertook to bring our perfection to us by everything done in terms of giving of the law to the sacrifices to the giving of His own Son.
Our part is to act upon a God given faith, believe in a God given word, obey a God given gospel, and we only do this when God's Spirit has planted the word in our hearts and given us his gift of faith to act upon what we believe.

Our salvation, reconciliation, redemption, new birth and indwelling Spirit are the invisible workings of God upon the human heart. We are recipients from beginning to end of God's grace.

The unredeemed have no free will only an enslaved will, they are dead in sins, therefore if they do attempt to gain from God it will be a dead work. If while they are yet unredeemed they undertake to fulfill the law, to act in obedience to God for God's sake, that man/woman will fail miserably.

It is not until God's electing love works by the Spirit of God to birth us and indwell us do we have any power or willingness to live rightly according to the scripture.
At that point, as saints we believe the promises that God's law is not external but written in our hearts. We believe God's love is evident to us because what the cross means and who was raised up on that cross become more precious than life. We recognize that we are now his and crucified with him. His kingdom and his will and his life are utmost; therefore obedience, good works, fruitfulness are the normal outcome of being united to Christ.

We have no part to play in earning, meriting, gaining pity or moving God's heart towards us because there is some intrinsic goodness and value that obligates God not to waste such a creation and so accordingly sound wisdom dictates he save us. But God has no such obligation set upon his grace, his grace is free, his love is free and his election is according to his own willing.

The sinner is dead and therefore anything contributed by the sinner is also dead. It is not until God's Spirit has planted the word in us and with it births us...by his own power are we capable of being sons of God and giving to God the love and worship and service he deserves.


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Marvin

 2018/3/14 19:10Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 2009
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: brother Marvin

Your thoughts are well ordered and arranged in an articulate, and I believe accurate, expression of your doctrine and while you already know I do not personally subscribe to a reformed grace position, I nonetheless am blessed by your earnestness, honesty and willingness to help me to understand better your understanding:)
Though we may rub on some points there are many you have drawn out that we are wholeheartedly in agreement upon, and for that I am truly grateful-

Thank you dear brother for taking the time to respond, I’m hoping to get a better understanding of how other saints view different points of doctrine without dividing over our perceived differences, as such you have made a notable contribution and I hope to hear more:)


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Fletcher

 2018/3/14 22:28Profile
Gloryandgrace
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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1165
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:

Brother Fletcher,

thank you for the very gracious words to me. I have no peace-time brothers, I have only war-time brothers. That means anyone who is born of God is with me not against me, he is of the same body, born of the same Spirit, serves the same God, redeemed and loved by the same Christ. I link arm in arm with any Arminian as I would a Calvinist, I love my brothers and sisters in Christ, Jesus commands me to love and those who are born of God love those who have been born of God. 1Jn5:1.

Peace-time brothers are those whom you can reject if they don't fit into your camp. The older I get the more truth I see in Christ making us one body with one Spirit having one Lord I am the better and the wiser to join ranks with those whom Christ has enlisted in his army.


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Marvin

 2018/3/14 22:46Profile
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

“Most of the discussion on this topic centers on what the true Gospel requires of us. The biblical answer begins with repentance, faith, baptism and continued, loyal obedience to Christ. But identifying what the Gospel requires of us is not the same thing as saying what the true Gospel actually is. This list of duties correctly identifies the proper response to the Gospel—not the Gospel itself.

The Gospel is a particular message of good tidings, heralded through Christ and the apostles (but only rarely by modern evangelists). It is called "the Gospel of the Kingdom" (e.g., Matt.4:23; 9:35; 24:14), because it is the proclamation of the presence of another Kingdom and another King—one Jesus (Luke 2:10-11; Isa.52:7; Acts 17:7; 20:25). This entire proclamation can be summarized by the original Christian confession: "Jesus is Lord [i.e., King]." This is what one must confess, in order to be saved (Rom.10:9). It is because He is the King that we must repent (of our former neglect of His lordship), trust Him, and be baptized into His alternative, royal society. Obedience is the obvious response to Lordship:

"Why do you call me 'Lord,' 'Lord,' and you do not do what I say?" (Luke 6:46)

One is not saved by the perfection of his/her obedience, but by the determination to obey completely. This is what happens when one hears, believes, and does not rebel against the proclamation of Christ's Kingship. Baptism is the public submission to the Crown, and a pledge to loyally follow Him until death. Many reduce the Gospel to a decree of justification only. However, justification, in the context of the Kingdom of Christ, is simply the amnesty granted by the King to penitent rebels, as they return in submission to the Authority they formerly spurned.

One is not saved by 80% obedience—nor by 100% obedience (which actually is possible over short periods, by the way). One is saved by having genuinely embraced the King and the life that logically follows from having such a King. None obeys completely, but we are commanded to do so, and true disciples have every intention of doing so. Failure to obey completely is a breach of the King's law, but it is not, in itself, damning. To inadvertently violate the speed limit is not to renounce your citizenship. Likewise, a child is not disowned by his parents because he forgets to do a particular assigned chore. There is grace in this Kingdom for those whose disobedience springs from weakness, ignorance or temporary insanity (James 3:2), and not from rebellion (Matt.26:41).

The Gospel is not a message of performance-oriented acceptance with God. We are saved by the grace of the Crown, and we obey because we love the King. If we do not love the King, whatever begrudged obedience we may render is a sham. It is not salvation.”
~~Steve Gregg


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Todd

 2018/3/15 7:25Profile
JFW
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Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 2009
Dothan, Alabama

 Re: brother Todd

Wow!!!

As I was reading over your submission, I confess that I was thinking “wow, brother Todd has really dug into this one” and then I get to the end and see it was Steve Gregg’s words...

Tho they may not be penned by you, the very fact you submitted them as a response says that they speak your position, reflecting accurately your understanding and I must say there were several times while reading that I not only agreed with but thought, “wow that was very well articulated” as some of these turns can get sticky and murky yet the writer (Steve Gregg) was able to navigate these with a learned hand, having himself been confronted by them before.

Brother Todd this submission too is very much a blessing to me and I’m grateful for it and for you taking the time to select and submit it,..
Thank you!!


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Fletcher

 2018/3/15 9:33Profile
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Yes- he very plainly is able to express my thoughts on this issue and, for me at least, explains convincingly how obedience is linked to salvation.

We don’t have kings any more so sometimes that idea is difficult for us to grasp.

But there are examples of good kings— I always think of Aragon from The Lord of the Rings. If I vow fealty to such a king, but at every turn try to figure out ways to avoid his directives, or do not cooperate in his purposes or even actually oppose his reign by subtle or outright subterfuge, can I really be described as a person who has truly sworn fealty to the king?


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Todd

 2018/3/15 11:25Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

I was always struck by the “conversion” statement of Marcellus from “The Robe:”

“From this day forward, I am enlisted in His service. I offer Him my fortune, my sword, and my life. And this I pledge to you on my honor as a Roman.”


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Todd

 2018/3/15 11:51Profile
JFW
Member



Joined: 2011/10/21
Posts: 2009
Dothan, Alabama

 Re:

Very much relate to the “King” analogy-
Seems fitting:)

Another one is;
Is Jesus the producer and director of your life?
That’s not to say you won’t miss your lines or go off script from time to time and even occasionally get out of character,... but that’s where grace comes in to enable faith to fill in those gaps, encouraging us to continue to follow His direction to lead us and His production to supply us.
This is analogous to how (I see) our obedience to God working-


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Fletcher

 2018/3/15 14:40Profile
TrueWitness
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Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 661


 Re:

Very good contributions everyone. I myself am coming around to the position of salvation as allegiance to a Sovereign. We probably won't perfectly act in accordance with our pledge but if we return humbly to the path of submission we know we belong to God. A book that speaks of this is by Matthew Bates. It is titled: "Salvation by Allegiance Alone: Rethinking Faith, Works, and the Gospel of Jesus the King"
I am still reading it. If you read the reviews, there are some nit-picks here and there but overall I think the thrust of it is on-target.

https://www.amazon.com/Salvation-Allegiance-Alone-Rethinking-Gospel/dp/0801097975/

-Daniel

 2018/3/15 15:47Profile





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