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"So you have better discernment?"

Yes, the Lord has spoken to me directly on this subject. I asked the brother to settle his mind on the issue for the reasons I stated.............bro Frank

 2018/1/4 21:56

Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1162
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re: The Refiners fire is coming.

I do love Francis Chan's ministry of the word.

Francis is talking about a complete paradigm shift. Francis Chan has been speaking about this shift for years now. He was able to effect it in his own life as a change in platform ministry and responsibility. However the Church he turned over too his Elders does not contain this paradigm shift itself, it still has its various ministries etc.

There are a few things that stand out in your O.P.
1. This paradigm shift Francis is speaking of.
2. The paradigm shift you envision once it's made in a congregation
3. A persecution-driven sweeping away of public worship as we know it, reformulating and reinventing itself as it seeks to survive persecution.

It's important to consider all of us posting on this website are products of the very 'system' that is eventually to change or be removed. There is no one that is not directly effected by institutional Church or some loose gathering of saints. All of those saints that have been anywhere near a TV, radio, or American Christian gathering are fully entrenched in American thinking.

What this means is we are an admixture of Jesus teachings, our own understandings and what we believe Jesus will bring to the people of God in years to come ( If the Lord tarries).
If you are spiritually healthy, it cannot be assumed for a moment the 'system' in place which God used, has been entirely detrimental to your walk with God. In fact, it has been beneficial in numerous ways. God is able to orchestrate and guide our flawed and fleshly congregations, leaders and ourselves into maturity despite our fervent complaints about that very 'system'.
If you are spiritually diseased, it cannot be assumed for a moment the 'system' in place God has used has been the cause of all your perceived weakness and flaws. There are other factors.

Now, to be candid, I heartily agree that a change needs to happen, but what that looks like has not been solidified. So while you envision it in Ephesians 5 style others will envision it vastly different. I believe the Most High God will orchestrate a full paradigm shift. Persecution ( correct me if I am wrong) does not produce tradition-dropping, gift-seeking, full congregational platform access Churches. It produces unity and bond based upon the love of God toward like-suffering saints, fervent dependence upon Jesus in the face of hardships that attempt to crush the faith out of way-side hearers, and stony ground receivers.

Giftedness, platform access are all a part of the 'system' still lingering in your own mind. I consider the upcoming change will remove platforms and permissions to speak, the order of a service will no longer need these formalities so that what you envision will not be a new freedom per-se, but a new way of living with each other according to our faith.


 2018/1/4 23:00Profile


Marvin writes...........

"Giftedness, platform access are all a part of the 'system' still lingering in your own mind."

Platform access has no part in my mind, a wee bit bold to say what is in my mind Marvin. The last gatherings I was involved with in the last few years that involved saints from all over the country did not include a platform. I have zero interest in platforms. Now, gifts, that is a another matter. I have never read in Scriptures about a platform but I have read about the gifts, their purpose and how they are a vital part of edification of the Body. What we agree with is the paradigm shift. I also agree that the church that Chan left has not changed.........bro Frank

 2018/1/4 23:50

Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1162
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re: The Refiners fire is coming.

Hi Frank: Thanks for the response.

Well, my mind reading skills are no good, but I do hope my reading skills are better.

I read... "You can clean the toilets and volunteer to look after the children but God forbid that He should speak through you from the front or, horror of horrors, from the platform."

To me, this is a cry for pulpit=platform access. I do not mean that you're coveting someone else pulpit, but I believe you desire to be heard and for others to be heard as well. It appears in your postings that you have something to say and you believe others do to and for them to be given opportunity. This 'speaking' is by way of pulpit=platform=lecturn=floor.

My intent was simply to introduce another aspect to such a change. Our God is not caged and even if we are 'caged' this didn't stop Francis or his leadership from doing God's will. It does not mean all of God's will or even the fullness of anointing that is available, but we are still partakers caged or not. But like you, I opt for cageless.

I wanted to add...what cageless looks like after the removal of what we are so used to I have yet to see. All I have seen are variants of 'caged'. I'm not sure that anyone has seen anything other than 'caged' or a variant.


 2018/1/5 0:51Profile

Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1112
Germany NRW


Frank, does your superior discernment entitle you to criticize Greg personally here on SI?
Maybe you can check James 3 and also check what is written above the "submit" button.

 2018/1/5 5:01Profile


Yes Marvin, I was speaking to the present mindset of the church, not mine. We are definately on the same page brother.........bro Frank

 2018/1/5 9:10

Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3569

 Re: The Refiners fire is coming.

One of the problems with the Church as we know it today is that the pastor has been elevated to a position far above what God's intention is for that particular office, and much of the Body of Christ is lacking because of it.

There are many good pastors that believe that they are faithfully serving God that are giving the people their own vision and building their churches on their own giftings. So the Body of believers in these churches is told that they are to get along side the pastor and help him to establish his own vision and mission. This is not to say that God has not given pastors particular assignments that they are to fulfill, but in many churches the saints are dependent on the pastor for a Word from the Lord, and have little or no idea that every member of the Body of Christ has a ministry and gifts for the building up of the Body of Christ. The Pastor is to work alongside the other offices of the fivefold ministry in building up the Body of Christ so that they can do the work of the ministry. This includes releasing the people in their own gifts and ministries.

The people of God need to be released from their cages that the religious system has constructed, so that they can be active participants, co laborers with the Lord in advancing the Kingdom of God.


 2018/1/5 12:05Profile


Good post bro Mike, could not agree more.......bro Frank

 2018/1/5 13:05

Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri


Mike: I think it goes even deeper than that. A religious system is a system in which I try to please God and change my life from my own efforts. I can be carnally minded about spiritual things, be dressed in spiritual trappings, and be deceived into thinking that I am following Christ and being pleasing to Him. Carnal mindedness leads me to be concerned with carnal things, the external trappings of religion and the behaviors that I am hoping to modify. Touch not, taste not, handle not, but all of these things perish with the using. I look good on the outside, but I have only modified by behavior, thinking all along that this is what pleases God.

But carnal mindedness is death. The carnal mind is enmity against God. It is not subject to the law of God, neither can it be. The only thing that self effort produces, no matter how much we think it is directed toward following God, is the works of the flesh. When we try to follow God through legalism, it produces only the opposite of what we hoped. This is Paul's wretchedness.

All of the other problems we can talk about in the church: ambition, need to be noticed, desire for the stage, jealously, envy, bitterness, etc., come from being carnally minded. The deception in this is that we think, because of our effort and our strict adherence to Christian standards, that we are spiritually minded. It is the same set of blinders that cover the eyes of literal Israel every time the law is read.

Those who in the last day say, "Lord, Lord, did we not do all these things in your name?", are, I believe, truly under this same deception. They think that their many works are what God is interested in, yet He says, "Depart from me. I never KNEW you."

We have to understand that entrance into the Kingdom is preceded by death to self. We must understand that God does not want to change our lives. He wants us to exchange our old life for His so that we no longer live, but He lives in us. It is not about heaven and hell. Neither is it about blessings and a good life as a believer. It is about becoming like Him. It is about being transformed into His image.

Somehow we have been selling the church a bill of goods for some time now. We have convinced them to make faith declaration based on fear of hell, promise of heaven, and promise of having their problems solved. But this is not the gospel. The gospel is about total transformation. He wants us out of our own minds and into His.

When we live IN HIM, we will naturally bear His fruit. Let the roots be good and the tree will be good. We will love out of a pure heart with faith unfeigned, because we are one with Him and He is love. Faith will be no problem. We will not need 12 laws of faith, or 25 principles of believing, or positive confessions, or any of those things. We will confess what is in His heart and mind, because we are IN Him and as a result we have the very mimd of Christ. Our revelation of His love and faithfulness will make believing Him as natural as breathing. We have attempted to overcome carnality with self-effort, hoping to obtain more faith as a result. It will never work. Our entire effort is directed toward turning our hearts toward Him and seeking Him so that we might enter into His rest.

We will no longer strive to be holy. We will be in Him, one with Him, filled with His Spirit, and holiness will be the natural byproduct as the fruit of obedience flows out of intimacy and relationship. We will no longer strive to overcome temptation and sin. It will fall off of us as we run full speed, deeper into Him.

We have not, in many ways, even understood the gospel that we claim to preach to the world. Something significant has been lost, and I believe God is speaking it loudly into the body right now. There is a separation coming in which the body will be refined. But I believe it is a separation between those who choose to lose their lives to find His and those who choose to forsake His life because they would rather control their own.


 2018/1/5 13:28Profile


Between brother Mike and Travis, we have had excellent teaching on this matter. I would say to all who read this thread, consider carefully what the brothers have shared...........bro Frank

 2018/1/5 14:25

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