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narrowpath
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Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1108
Germany NRW

 Re: Do we deserve to be loved?

Jesus gave himself in love to a world that rejected Him.
We can expect the same treatment. We are to love our brothers, and they are required to love us,too, but we cannot demand it.

Love gives and does not expect.

 2017/12/26 16:27Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Travis,
Since words have limitations, I’ve added some thoughts (IN CAPS)to your post. Let me know if I’m tracking with your thoughts at all.

Many apologies for the CAPS, but no other formatting is available by which I can distinguish my own inserts. Here’s my expansion of your quote, Travis:


“When I am in the place of understanding and experiencing the love of the Father in intimacy, I do not feel like I deserve anything from anyone [I.E. I AM NO LONGER RELIANT ON HUMANS TO AFFIRM MY WORTH AS A HUMAN BEING]. Instead, I realize that I am put here to fulfill my place in loving that other person as Jesus loved. I cannot be hurt by that person anymore.[I CANNOT BE CRUSHED BY A SENSE OF REJECTION BECAUSE MY CORE WORTH IS NOT DEPENDENT ON OTHERS] I have absolutely no expectation of them. [I AM NOT DEPENDENT ON THEIR APPROVALS. YET I CAN EXPECT AND HOPE THAT THEIR LOVE WILL GROW IN MATURITY, AND I WILL HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE AS IS FITTING. I WILL NOT PASSIVELY PERMIT AND OVERLOOK ONE'S FAILURE TO LOVE, AS THAT, IN ITSELF, IS A FAILURE ON MY PART TO LOVE]


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Diane

 2017/12/26 19:09Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

I believe this quote by Travis is key to this entire discussion. The idea is that Christ’s love does not replace the work of "one anothering" in the Body. Christ's love is intended to flow through people. Thank you Marvin:

Quote:
Jesus meets our needs through one another, and he meets them even when we do not recognize we have them.

The need for love is to be met by Jesus through the Church by the Spirit manifesting himself in various ways.



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Diane

 2017/12/26 19:15Profile
Gloryandgrace
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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1162
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:

Esther said...

But even so... I think, I have to focus more on doing God's will, come what may. Disappointment comes when others don't live up to your 'appointment'. Is that important? Or shall we rather pray that other believers come to what God wants them to be and to do?

If you will allow me, I will attempt to elaborate a little.

The more we have invested in the lives of others the more interplay we have with each other in regards to love.
When we "love" those acquaintances at Church, we find it easy (most of the time) to love them. This is because they are a safe distance from what we care about.
They are a safe distance from our families, our own philosophies, our money, our egos, our fears, our sins and failures, our past.
We are safe from them because they don't know enough to be dangerous to us in any meaningful way.

But, when we love them up close and we find out.
our money is not safe, our past is up for scrutiny, our philosophies are put to the test, our family is inconvenienced, our fears exposed.

How does this work with "need". It works this way.
We are so safe from mere acquaintances to have them is in most cases equal to not having them, to receive their praises is in many cases equal to no praises, their disdain in many cases equal to no disdain at all. In all their love or hatred there is nothing that 'sticks' to us because there is no investment which is equal to saying "Ive placed no weight or importance upon their judgments for or against me".
But, when I love them according to knowledge, and they love me according to knowledge, now they can love me knowing my past, knowing my ego, knowing my failures and current weaknesses. They can love me and their love registers as a 'real' love because they love the 'real' me, fleas and all. Same with their reproofs and correctives, now they can love me with help, guidance, corrections, warnings. I can get love from both positive and negative feedback.
Here is the really great thing about God's love done in this way. What I have "needed" in my life is "love" given to me being what I am, where I am and with all the failures, weaknesses and strengths and powers I truly have. My need exposed me to the love of God given to me by others...not abstractly in word, but in reality by deed. Being loved by others according to the Spirit and Word of God demonstrates the love of God in truth. This demonstration in truth grounds us so that we might give this same love to others 'in truth'.

Our Spiritual strength or weakness as judged by ourselves according to our own current state of affairs, emotions, circumstances is no true litmus test whatsoever as to our true 'neediness' for the love of others.

The Spiritual man who is growing in grace exposes himself to the "needs" of others so that he might edify and encourage them. This same man exposes himself for others to give to him what they have.
Jesus didn't just meet needs, he made himself available for others to meet his needs.
This mutual 'neediness' is a design of God whereby we come into contact with the love of God 'in truth'.

Will failures come? I think we all know the answer to that, but failures from ourselves and from others are designed to point us both in one direction. Jesus. He alone empowers the giver to those in need, and those in need find his signature of love written upon the deeds of even the weakest and clumsiest of his people.

Our own human neediness is nothing to be ashamed of, what we have needed to repent of has always been where and how we sought for those needs to be met, and from whom and what circumstances we refused to be helped because it actually exposed our true need of Jesus and others.


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Marvin

 2017/12/27 0:51Profile
Gloryandgrace
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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1162
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:

Travis said.

"have been met in Him. Now I am free to love you with the love of God. So I make you stronger and stronger as we walk in relationship. We can both now supply what God has anointed us to supply to the body and the body has no lack, no need."

In my last post, I elaborated to Esther about exposing ourselves to being loved and to 'feeling' and meeting the needs of others.
But I also wrote of the failures that occur along the way. Some failures are of such a nature that the person who submitted themselves to another was really betrayed, or they were slandered, they were mercilessly exploited or harmed irreparably.
The danger of actually following Jesus according to the word of God puts all of us who are obeying Christ in the sights of Satan to use his slaves to harm us. Or, he instigates God's own to betray their fidelity to Christ and serve their sinful nature which results in our deliberate harm.

Here' Travis's wisdom ( Christ's wisdom) should be followed carefully here. Though I submit to my brothers and sisters, I am looking for the source of their power and like-fruit of Christ evident from their deeds. When I recognize bad fruit or a soulish, carnal power/motive I discern it, guard my spirit against it and receive from them what is ( if anything) truly spiritual.

The purer the agent is in motive and acts the more trustworthy they are to love me and help me according to the will and word of God. Be discerning, be watchful, be trusting in Christ for what is going on.
Without restating much of what Travis wrote earlier, he is spot on regarding 'who is really meeting his need's.
There should be a certain "loose grip" we have in expecting 'the love of God undefiled' toward us. Give them the same room and the same patience you would want for yourself knowing your own weaknesses.

To walk in the Spirit cannot be formulaic, there is no one formula that avoids all the spiritual darts that will be hurled at you. Keep your spiritual armor on, yes it sounds almost contradictory "let others love you, yet keep the helmet of salvation on at their dinner table".
know that it is Jesus that is meeting your need even when those who God appointed to serve you, serve you to the dogs.

To be a blameless and harmless son of God, one must submit to God in this way, so that God can demonstrate his love and his kindness through you in situations and with people where no one would actually volunteer to go there or be with them.


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Marvin

 2017/12/27 1:26Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Marvin, your words here are insightful:

Quote:
This mutual 'neediness' is a design of God whereby we come into contact with the love of God 'in truth'.

Keep your spiritual armor on, yes it sounds almost contradictory "let others love you, yet keep the helmet of salvation on at their dinner table".


I was once reminded that the “spiritual armour of God” is not an outer defense like natural armour. It’s something within us, through the gifts of grace. It’s intrinsic to our character. It doesn’t shield our vulnerability. Instead it frees us to dismantle our self-protective walls of defense which we have used to hide our true selves (and shield us from the back-and-forth flow of love).

It seems like we're heading towards this question:

Can true love ever be demanded or coerced?

I think of those interest/identity groups today who are demanding certain rights– ex preferred pronouns. These folk are trying to get love (a legitimate need) in ways that will not work. No one gets true love by coercing people into certain behaviours. Forced “love” never removes hatred, resentment, or fear. It just reinforces the protective walls of defense. This inevitably degenerates into conflict, brutalities and totalitarianism. And that's just what we're seeing in our own lands.

That’s the tragic predicament of our current society. It's the outcome of rejecting the ultimate source of love.

It’s the predicted outcome of rejecting God. (Romans 1:21 ff)



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Diane

 2017/12/27 8:47Profile
Gloryandgrace
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Joined: 2017/7/14
Posts: 1162
Snoqualmie, WA

 Re:

Hi Diane:

Your question...Can true love ever be demanded or coerced?

Answered eloquently.

But love is commanded.
God has stated in the imperative.."Love God; love one another" God can and does command us to love.
Scripture is clear on this...nevertheless Diane is quite correct. There is no contradiction.
God who commands also empowers for the command. God who requires an obedience toward him in loving him back and loving others in the way we are loved does not hinge or support itself by means of human effort and will. When God commands us to love, our love being demanded is all the while indwelling in us by the Spirit of God indwelling. For the Spirit of Christ sheds abroad the love of God in our hearts Rom 5. The love expressed through us is not coerced by God, ours is a synergism between the power of the Spirit and an available man/woman.

This raises another assertion and question. " I don't have the love of God! Where can I get it? The answer of course is in Jesus who reconciles us unto himself thereby making us his children...and now indwelling us by the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God has all the love we need in order to obey God to love him and love one another.

Bringing this full circle...when those people who are supposed to love their neighbor do so for all the wrong reasons and for all the wrong motives act not in the power of the Spirit with the motives the Spirit gives...Dianes succinct conclusion is truly inevitable.

"I think of those interest/identity groups today who are demanding certain rights– ex preferred pronouns. These folk are trying to get love (a legitimate need) in ways that will not work. No one gets true love by coercing people into certain behaviors'. Forced “love” never removes hatred, resentment, or fear. It just reinforces the protective walls of defense. This inevitably degenerates into conflict, brutalities and totalitarianism. And that's just what we're seeing in our own lands.

That’s the tragic predicament of our current society. It's the outcome of rejecting the ultimate source of love."


_________________
Marvin

 2017/12/27 15:20Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
[I AM NOT DEPENDENT ON THEIR APPROVALS. YET I CAN EXPECT AND HOPE THAT THEIR LOVE WILL GROW IN MATURITY, AND I WILL HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE AS IS FITTING. I WILL NOT PASSIVELY PERMIT AND OVERLOOK ONE'S FAILURE TO LOVE, AS THAT, IN ITSELF, IS A FAILURE ON MY PART TO LOVE]



You have nailed what I am trying to say with one exception, and that is here. I am not required to hold anyone accountable for how they love or do not love me. When I am in Christ, His love works through me toward others, regardless of whether they love me or do not love me.

There is a place where I am to hold my brothers and sisters accountable. None of us live to ourselves, and we are to spur our brothers on to love and to good works. But the motive of this exhortation is key. If I feel slighted, hurt, and unloved, then my correction would come from that place and would be totally carnal. It would not work the righteousness of God. I cannot exhort in love out of a heart that hurts from lack of love.

Jesus wants to eliminate that hurt. He wants us to press into relationship with Him so that He is our joy, our peace, our security, and our love. I know to our own carnal minds this sounds impossible, but God has called us to get out of our carnal minds and to have the mind of Christ. Through intimacy with Him we can come to the place where we are no longer needy of the love of another man. We are in His love, and as a result all of our human needs are met in Him. This leaves us free to love unconditionally with His love.


_________________
Travis

 2017/12/28 9:44Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I believe this quote by Travis is key to this entire discussion. The idea is that Christ’s love does not replace the work of "one anothering" in the Body. Christ's love is intended to flow through people. Thank you Marvin:
Quote:
Jesus meets our needs through one another, and he meets them even when we do not recognize we have them.

The need for love is to be met by Jesus through the Church by the Spirit manifesting himself in various ways.


_________________
Diane



Diane: Not sure, but I think you are attributing a quote to me that is not mine.


_________________
Travis

 2017/12/28 9:48Profile





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