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 Re:

Esther asked the question, we can try and answer it but we should not try and re-write it, otherwise we are getting off topic.

Imo "love" and "deserve" don't go together.

A definition I read:
In respect of agapao as used of God, it expresses the deep and constant "love" and interest of a perfect Being towards entirely unworthy objects, producing and fostering a reverential "love" in them towards the Giver, and a practical "love" towards those who are partakers of the same, and a desire to help others to seek the Giver.

From Ray Steadman:
"There is a theme that runs all through the Bible: "As long as you justify yourself, God will never justify you."
That is why Jesus begins the Sermon on the Mount by saying, "Blessed are the poor in spirit" (Matthew 5:3),
those who are bankrupt in themselves, who have come to the end. When we shut up and stop defending and justifying ourselves, God will rise to take up our cause
Lord, help me to lay aside all my flaunting schemes for self-improvement and self-defense and stand naked before You, trusting Your loving grace to give me all I need..."

In other words, I believe Love is not something we deserve and we have to be very careful that we don't do anything in God's Kingdom because we want to "earn" or "deserve" something .

Hope you get what I'm trying to say.

 2017/12/18 14:55
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:

Love is not something we deserve and we have to be very careful that we don't do anything in God's Kingdom because we want to "earn" or "deserve" something .



May I suggest that "earn" and "deserve" are not synonymous?

I am reminded of a court case I witnessed where the accused was guilty of murder. The crown attorney, who represented the victim, treated the man with respect and dignity, even while proving his guilt.

The accused earned the judgment, but he deserved the respectful treatment because he was a fellow human being. This lawyer distinguished between earn and deserve - and I believe that applies to us all.

We are easily tempted to treat others according to what we believe they deserve. That has been the root of horrendous evils among the people of God. ... so this is a worthy topic to consider, I'd say.


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Diane

 2017/12/18 15:27Profile
savannah
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Posts: 2071


 Re: worth less or worthless



Deuteronomy 13:6-11

“If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.


I sure am glad we've seen the light in our day.

Either they were unaware of the value of each family member, or the value of human beings have increased over the years rather than being of less worth.

______________________

Deuteronomy 13:12-15

“If you hear in one of your cities, which the LORD your God is giving you to dwell there, that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction,c all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword.


Apparently there were some fellows back in the day who had no value, but were worthless fellows.

 2017/12/18 19:14Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
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 Re:

Quote:
Apparently there were some fellows back in the day who had no value, but were worthless fellows.


It may seem so - if we read the Mosaic law through our cultural individualistic mindset. But what if we were to read it through the lens of God’s covenant purposes. The code of law was intended to preserve God’s promise through his chosen people. Their calling was to reveal God’s nature to a sinful world. God is holy, and his people were to reflect his holiness – that is, untainted by the marks of unbelief in surrounding cultures.

Here’s a question about “value”: Is a diamond worth more than a grain of sand… or a glass of water? How is value established? By whom?

Humans aren’t worth much, as far as chemical composition.
What gives any human value or worth? What they do, right? .... Wrong.

It’s been established that our value is not based on righteousness. So it’s a contradiction then to suggest that this applies only to good people.

Surely, human value is established through our Creator. It’s extrinsically determined, not intrinsically That applies to every human being on the face of the earth – including the unborn.

A question: is divine judgment the opposite of love? Or is it the outworking of love?


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Diane

 2017/12/19 9:15Profile
savannah
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 Re: Christ is all



Our value/worth is in Christ alone!

Outside of Christ we see the worth of all flesh. The flood is a summary example from the past. The lake of fire is the summary example in conclusion.

And, "God is love", as the testimony of Scripture proclaims.
His love is for those in Christ alone. His wrath abides upon everyone who is not in Christ, and will culminate in His judgment and justice when they're cast into the lake of fire.

He alone gives worth and shows of what value one or another is. And the one has value for fuel for the fire, and the other has been made valuable by putting him in Christ and redeeming him.

The wood I threw in the fire had value to me, as it is keeping my family warm this winter. And the tree in my front yard also has value, as it gives my family shade in the summer.

The Word of God and experience itself bears these truths out unmistakably.

Psychology and the Bible are a bad mixture. Humanists and atheists like Hitchens and Dawkins are well versed psychologizers.

FYI - Hitchens is no longer an atheist.

 2017/12/19 10:09Profile
TakeUptheCross
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Joined: 2016/8/10
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 Re:

Did not read the last two posts, but it seems to me that they drift off from what I initially asked

@savannah - With all respect and kindness, I do not really see your post as an answer to my question(s). You may have something in mind concerning the theme "love". But I think, you have perhaps not understood what I really wanted to ask.

For the others - will answer later today.

 2017/12/19 10:17Profile
roadsign
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Posts: 3777


 Re:

Esther

Quote:
@Diane - I get your logic, but I guess nobody would usually come up and say -"You know what, I just want you to love me because I am a child of God" (speaking among believers).


My apologies! I missed your post, Esther.
I agree: People are not inclined to express their legitimate need for love (value, belonging and purpose). And for sure, Christians may feel they deserve special treatment because they are “a child of God”. But then, that’s a dependency on “approval and praise” wouldn’t you say? Humans so easily attach “love” with false assumptions. (ex use of gender pronouns, etc) And that’s when you see into this bullying behaviour – forcing us to “love” them according to their own criteria. Esther, is that what you are saying here:
Quote:
… you cannot force anybody to love you. Then comes perhaps also the issue that what we understand as "brotherly love" is different? Perhaps for one is to ask "How are you doing?" and for other to be interested in one's spiritual welfare?


Actually, I had alluded to the problem of victimhood, where we won’t take responsibility for our own actions when we are disrespected (unloved). Removing ourselves from such situations is not force or bullying. We are respecting their right to choose. They may then see that their behaviour doesn’t pay off. Or they may not. But we’ve given them an opportunity to mature. That’s love.




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Diane

 2017/12/19 10:22Profile
savannah
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Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2071


 Re: Q



Esther,

I apologize for not directly answering your question.

You ask, "Is it right to demand or expect from others (primarily believers to love you)?"

As believers, we're told to owe no man anything, but to love one another. So, as a believer I owe all other believers that love spoken of.

So, if believers do not love one another, they must give an answer to God as to why not.

As true as it is, that a believer is to love another believer, and ought to do so, when I demand and/or expect it I may be setting myself up for disappointment. Because truth be told, believers often fall short of doing so.

And only the fact that I am a believer am I deserving of other believers love for me because God says that they are to do so. In and of myself I am not deserving.

Thanks for loving me!

 2017/12/19 10:51Profile
ginnyrose
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 Re: Do we deserve to be loved?

Esther,

I did not read all the responses, but I have a question or two for you: why are you asking this question?

Second: what makes you think that God's creatures do not deserve to be loved by their creator?

Sandra


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Sandra Miller

 2017/12/19 16:55Profile
TakeUptheCross
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Joined: 2016/8/10
Posts: 242
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 Re:

@Diane

Definiton of deserve: "Do something or have or show qualities worthy of (a reaction which rewards or punishes as appropriate)" - Oxford Dictionaries

So, I think that it has a sense of - I have certain qualities that make me worthy of this or that... Now, I earlier said, that I know, we do not deserve the Love of God but He loves us because He is Love (not because He is motivated by something He sees in us).

My question was generally about deserving the love of fellow-believers. And yea I know we are commanded to love each other! But actually the reason for loving other believer is the Father, because they are beloved not because they are as mature as you are, as rich (in deeds, in knowledge, with money), same nationality ... whatever.

And isn't it surprising what Jesus said? *John 13:34, 35
Have you ever thought what kind of love this must be, that the world would see Christ through it?!

 2017/12/19 17:36Profile





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