Amen Travis very good edifying input here.

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David Fella

Travis, I generally agree with you, I understand there is a difference between the empowering of the Holy Spirit for witness and the regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit, but it is one and the same Spirit in us who works in this way.
I will make my point again..to keep using the term 'baptized with the Spirit' in a way that gives the impression that it is something separate from and distinct from 'being filled with the Spirit' is not biblical.

In Acts 1 Jesus said to the disciples " in a few days you will be Baptized with the Holt Spirit". When this occurred in Acts 2 it says: "And they were all FILLED with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." So clearly it is the same thing.

Check through scripture (in particular Acts and the Epistles) and you will see that the empowering of the Spirit nearly always referred to as 'Being filled' or 'receiving the Spirit'.

You ask: "Here is my question. Why do we make it so much of a controversy? I have always wondered. Jesus taught about the Holy Spirit and said this."

Part of the reason for the controversy is that there is this 'teaching' that says the 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit' is a experience that someone receives and once they 'have it' they have now got spiritual power and the gifts and until someone receives this 'baptism' they lack the power of the Holy Spirit. My contention (from scripture) is that the Holy Spirit is now (post Pentecost) available to fill (baptize) all Christians on an ongoing basis. We might be filled (baptized) one day and not the next.

Because of this faulty teaching we have multitudes of people who think they 'have the Spirit', because "I received the Baptism in 1982 brother!", who are not filled with the Spirit operating in what they consider the 'gifts of the Spirit', but in reality is just their flesh and soul. This is why most 'tongues' you hear are not the real thing. At best they are just repeating what they heard or remembered from a previous experience.

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Dave

It would be interesting to know the percentage of folks minds/opinions, that have been changed during these long debates. Maybe we should have a thread and call it, "My Mind/Opinion Was Changed" and have a brief testimony from that person, on how and why their mind/opinion was changed. That would not only be a powerful thread, it would also be a very humbling thread, to help folks understand it's ok to not know everything. Scripture teaches that we can have a true and personal knowledge of God, but this does not mean we will ever understand him exhaustively. The Bible is clear that God is ultimately incomprehensible to us; that is, we can never fully comprehend his whole being. The following passages show this:

Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised, and his greatness is unsearchable. (Ps. 145:3)

Behold, these are but the outskirts of his ways, and how small a whisper do we hear of him! But the thunder of his power who can understand? (Job 26:14)

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isa. 55:8–9)

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" (Rom. 11:33–34; cf. Job 42:1–6; Ps. 139:6, 17–18; 147:5; Isa. 57:15; 1 Cor. 2:10–11; 1 Tim. 6:13–16)

These verses teach that not only is God’s whole being incomprehensible but each of his attributes his greatness, power, thoughts, ways, wisdom, and judgments are well beyond human ability to fathom fully. Not only can we never know everything there is to know about God, we can never know everything there is to know about even one aspect of God’s character or work.

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Bill

Dave: Agreed! I have known of believers who received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues, checked it off their list, and never continued to hunger for the power of God in their lives. They had a one time experience and somehow thought that was the goal.

But being indued with power by the Holy Spirit is an ongoing relationship that consists of His presence and power continually being poured in, our continually being filled up, and Him flowing out through us in ministry to build the kingdom and see Christ formed in men.

I make no distinction between being filled with or baptized in the Holy Spirit. One and the same in my opinion. But I do believe there is an initial introduction into this induement of power just as there is an initial introduction into the kingdom, being born again. This is how I think I would describe the way I have experience it. When I am born again, it is not a one time shot. I am born again, but I continue to grow in faith and maturity. I continue to receive revelation of just what Jesus did for me. I continue to allow God to transform my life from that moment on. In that sense, being born again is something that continues for my entire life. The same with being filled with the Spirit or baptized in the Spirit. There is an introduction point and then a continual growth from that point on. I am to continually be in a state of being filled with the Spirit.

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Travis

Bill: I can honestly say that discussions such as this force me to dig into scripture and question myself. They also edify me and build me up. I know that sometimes men and women get into the flesh and become argumentative and even angry in these discussions. This is very unfortunate and it highlights immaturity in our lives. Hopefully when we see that in ourselves or in others it prompts us to go to our knees and ask God to change us. But I don't believe this means that the discussion is unfruitful.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

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Travis

Thanks Travis for the thoughtful reply.

Further questions:

1. What does it mean to be filled with the Holy Spirit? Is that an experience (to continually receive a tangible touch of God, as some interpret it)?

2. I can relate to what you shared about discernment. My discernment can be very sharp, but there have been instances where I have been wrong though - and that can foment doubt. So how do you know if your discernment is of God? I guess more generally, how do you practically discern the voice of God?

Travis, what a heartfelt response, and you're so right, when I see the flesh enter these threads, it just keeps me from even wanting to join in. What bothers me the most, is the back and forth where it almost becomes an arrogance for one to be right. This has been going on for a long time, and I know most of my posts some don't like, because I bring more of a realistic view, and biblical view, like we will never know it all, or understand it all. Some will duel until it gets ugly, I feel called, to just sometimes be a mediator, to let folks know, it's ok, because not one of us knows it all. Yes, the flesh always will have the desire to win, were the spirit has the desire to love. :-)

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Bill

""""""""Travis, what a heartfelt response, and you're so right, when I see the flesh enter these threads, it just keeps me from even wanting to join in. What bothers me the most, is the back and forth where it almost becomes an arrogance for one to be right. This has been going on for a long time, and I know most of my posts some don't like, because I bring more of a realistic view, and biblical view, like we will never know it all, or understand it all. Some will duel until it gets ugly, I feel called, to just sometimes be a mediator, to let folks know, it's ok, because not one of us knows it all. Yes, the flesh always will have the desire to win, were the spirit has the desire to love. :-)""""""""

Brother Bill, you are so right, even I have gotten too passionate defending the faith and need to be corrected at times. May Jesus produce more good fruit in our lives so we will be in unity as a body even "if" we disagree on the lesser things. None of us have arrived, we are all growing up into Jesus. Some are more mature, and it shows by their fruits....others like me, still stumble in the process of maturity. Thank you Brother.


Brother Travis, thank you for sharing all that the Lord put on your heart, it has greatly edified us. Praise be to Jesus.

Hi. I haven't read the whole thread, but I tried to search through it to avoid only saying things that have been said before. Hopefully I'm successful.

I agree with a lot of what has been said, but I think I have something to add. There is a connection between John 20:22 where Jesus breathes on His disciples, giving them the Holy Spirit, and chapter 2 of Genesis where God breathes into Adam, making him a living being.

We know that the work of Jesus on the cross not only provides for our individual salvation, but also begins the redemption of all of creation (Romans 8). This connection between John 20:22 and Genesis 2:7 indicates to me that THIS is the beginning of the new creation. "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." (2 Cor. 5:17)

To me this is the clearest evidence that the apostles were born again at John 20:22. As was said before, the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is an experience above and beyond the reception of the Spirit at salvation (though possibly it could occur all at once). The breath of Jesus in John 20:22 compared to the sound of a mighty rushing wind in Acts 2:2 should make this evident. Also, being filled with the Spirit can and should be repeated (Acts 4:8, 4:31).

I tried to keep this brief; I hope I explained myself well enough. I hope this was helpful to people.

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Jeff

Hmmm. Jeff I have never heard it put quite,that way before. Similar but not quite that way. I will have to study that one a bit. Thanks fir the input.

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Travis