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Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


I looked extensively at "charismatic signs" like tounges, prophecy
and healings - and at least 95% is Fake. Why? People mix & match
time lines and get lost in understanding, false docrines lead to false
experiences, and the inflow of every false spirit is permitted,
and not even detected in most cases, instead realizing that Paul the apostel
to the gentiles presents the COMPLETE gospel as it stands for us, NOW.
and nothing much else matters.

Romans 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized
into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are
buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up
from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should
walk in newness of life.

So we are baptized into Jesus Christ when be start believing and
become part of one body, now, at this point in time.

Ephesians 4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

And there is 1 baptism in total

1 Corinthians 12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into
one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be
bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

...and have been ALL made to drink into one Spirit, not only some
and others later, after another baptism.

so obviously this all happens at the same time, since otherwise
he would have added there is a second baptism to be sought
after the inital one when we first believed and became part of
the body. Salvation and receving the Holy Ghost is the one
and the same blessing of the 1 mentioned baptism.

Pentecostalism is : One Lord, one faith, two baptisms
(or multiple ones in individual denominations)

but since God or Paul never asked anyone to search for
a second baptism, what exactly did you receive the second time
after you already had received everything God promised?

Something extra, correct. But not anything God promised to give,
at this point any additional wilful baptism (that many denominations
ask of members when you join them) is leaving Bible doctrine
behind and Paul would have rebuked it strongly.

You now have received something extra to the Holy Ghost but
you have to realize it is something Paul ( the Apostle to the
gentiles - you remember ), not asked to wait for, tarry or
search for. So you are on your own to explain that you did
anyway to Jesus when you meet him.

These above verses are about the only significant verses
AFTER Pentecost concerning baptisms, there is no extra
mentions by Paul, John or Peter about a separate
baptism to look or search for, so this is still valid today, unlike
anything pre or during pentecost the time of transition.
Also after acts no mention is ever made of an interval
between conversion and the reception of the Spirit.
It's not mentioned because it does not exist, it's man-made,
based on personal experience - not doctrine, and
to ask God to support man-made religion is a very futile act.

 2017/7/28 23:14Profile

Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1124
Germany NRW


The baptism with the Holy Spirit usually concludes water baptism. I got the baptism with the Holy Spirit after conversion and after a team of praying Christians cast out a number of demons from me, yet it was before my water baptism.

When you get baptised with the Holy Spirit there is a witness to the human spirit that you received Him. You will know beyond doubt. He is not just a theological object but a person.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Romans 8:16 KJV

You can know a person on a personal level and have a 2 way communication with them.

People do not get they baptism due to various reasons, here are a few:
lack of proper teaching
too much focus on manifestations
An unsurrendered heart - Jesus is saviour but not Lord
Fearmongering by some teaching
Unconfessed sin

Main reason: They never bothered to ask!

Dear brother Eli (?), have you ever asked God to baptize you with His Spirit?

And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Luke 11:9‭-‬13 KJV


 2017/7/29 1:23Profile

Joined: 2016/6/4
Posts: 949
Johannesburg, South Africa

 Re: and they, being filled with the Spirit, began to speak...

"Acts 4:8
"Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel:"

The again later...
Acts 4:31
"And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness."

Brother Dave and all my brethren. Maybe we should move away from labeling our churches Charismatic, Pentecostal or Non...and simply ask this question:
In light of the above verses, can the same be said in our assemblies about ourselves and our leaders?



 2017/7/29 4:17Profile

Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 756



Acts 1:4-5 -- Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

That great day came in Acts 2 on the Day of Pentecost.

So, according to the Lord Jesus’ words in Acts 1:4-5, the believers were BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT on that Day of Pentecost.

The word “baptize” is simply transliterated from the Greek word “baptizo” in our English Bibles. It is not translated.

What does the Greek word “baptizo” mean?

Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary gives this definition:

“Baptizo, ‘to baptize,’ primarily a frequentative form of bapto, ‘to dip,’ was used among the Greeks to signify the dyeing of a garment, or the drawing of water by dipping a vessel into another, etc. Plutarchus uses it of the drawing wine by dipping the cup into the bowl.”

In the dyeing of the garment:
(1) The garment is immersed in the dye
(2) The dye saturates (or fills) the garment

In the drawing of wine by dipping the cup into the bowl:
(1) The cup is immersed in the wine in the bowl
(2) The wine in the bowl fills the cup.

Therefore when we are baptized with the Holy Spirit:

(1) We are immersed in the Holy Spirit.

“For in him we live, and move, and have our being” (Acts 17:28).

(2) The Holy Spirit fills us.

We are God’s temple in which the Holy Spirit lives (1 Cor. 3:16).
The Holy Spirit is in us as a “well of water springing up to eternal life” (John 4:14).
The Holy Spirit shall flow like rivers of living water from our innermost being (John 7:38-39).
We are joined to the Lord and is one spirit with Him (1 Cor. 6:17).

“And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing -- let him say, Come; and he who is thirsting -- let him come; and he who is willing -- let him take the water of life freely” (Rev. 22:17 YLT).

We can have the Holy Spirit in us “ankle-deep”, “knee-deep”, “waist-deep” or “a river that could not be forded” (Ezek. 47) according to our faith in the Lord Jesus. John 7:38 -- ***** He who believes in Me *****..... From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.”

Filling also needs emptying. The measure of the Holy Spirit we can have in us is also dependent on how much we have emptied ourselves of self/flesh and the desires of the world.


I am not disputing that there are many who have had a special and overwhelming experience of the peace and joy and power of the Holy Spirit. My own thought on this is that there are too many Christians who are still “babes” and the Holy Spirit in them is grieved and quenched. So God gives a special filling of the Spirit to get His work done in them and/or through them. How else can there be revival in a parched and dry land?


 2017/7/29 10:45Profile

Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 756

 "The Second Blessing" by Andrew Murray

The Second Blessing
IN the life of the believer there sometimes comes a crisis, as clearly marked as his conversion, in which he passes out of a life of continual feebleness and failure to one of strength, and victory, and abiding rest. The transition has been called the Second Blessing. Many have objected to the phrase, as being unscriptural, or as tending to make a rule for all, what was only a mode of experience in some. Others have used it as helping to express clearly in human words what ought to be taught to believers as a possible deliverance from the ordinary life of the Christian, to one of abiding fellowship with God, and entire devotion to His service. In introducing it. into the title of this book, I have indicated my belief that, rightly understood, the words express a scriptural truth, and may be a help to believers in putting clearly before them what they may expect from God. Let me try and make clear how I think we ought to understand it.

I have connected the expression with the two Covenants. Why was it that God made two Covenants-not one, and not three? Because there were two parties concerned. In the First Covenant man was to prove what he could do, and what he was. In the Second, God would show what He would do. The former was the time of needed preparation ; the latter, the time of Divine fulfilment. The same necessity as there was for this in the race, exists in the individual too.

Conversion makes of a sinner a child of God, full of ignorance and weakness, without any conception of what the whole-hearted devotion is that God asks of him, or the full possession God is ready to take of him. In some cases the transition from the elementary stage is by a gradual growth and enlightenment. But experiences teaches, that in the great majority of cases this healthy growth is not found. To those who have never found the secret of a healthy growth, of victory over sin and perfect rest in God, and have possibly despaired of ever finding it, because all their efforts have been failures, it has often been a wonderful help to learn that it is possible by a single decisive step, bringing them into a right relationship to Christ, His Spirit, and His strength, to enter upon an entirely new life.

What is needed to help a man to take that step is very simple. He must see and confess the wrongness, the sin, of the life he is living, not in harmony with God's will. He must see and believe in the life which Scripture holds out, which Christ Jesus promises to work and maintain in him. As he sees that his failure has been owing to his striving in his own strength, and believes that our Lord Jesus will actually work all in him in Divine power, he takes courage, and dares surrender himself to Christ anew. Confessing and giving up all that is of self and sin, yielding himself wholly to Christ and His service, he believes and receives a new power to live his life by the faith of the Son of God. The change is in many cases as clear, as marked, as wonderful, as conversion. For lack of a better name, that of A Second Blessing came most naturally.

When once it is seen how greatly this change is needed in the life of most Christians, and how entirely it rests on faith in Christ and His power, as revealed in the Word, all doubt as to its scripturalness will be removed. And when once its truth is seen, we shall be surprised to find how, throughout Scripture, in history and teaching, we find what illustrates and confirms it.

Take the twofold passage of Israel through water, first out of Egypt, then into Canaan. The wilderness journey was the result of unbelief and disobedience, allowed by God to
humble them, and prove them, and show what was in their heart. When this purpose had been accomplished, a second blessing led them through Jordan as mightily into Canaan, as the first had brought them through the Red Sea out of Egypt.

Or take the Holy Place and the Holiest of All, as types of the life in the two covenants, and equally in the two stages of Christian experience. In the former, very real access to God and fellowship with Him, but always with a veil between. In the latter, the full access, through a rent veil, into the immediate presence of. God, and the full experience of the power of the heavenly life. As the eyes are opened to see how terribly the average Christian life comes short of God's purpose, and how truly the mingled life can be expelled by the power of a new revelation of what God waits to do, the types of Scripture will shine with a new meaning.

Or look to the teachings of the New Testament. In Romans, Paul contrasts the life of the Christian under the law with that under grace, the spirit of bondage with the Spirit of adoption. What does this mean but that Christians may still be living under the law and its bondage, that they need to come out of this into the full life of grace and liberty through the Holy Spirit, and that, when first they seethe difference, nothing is needed but the surrender of faith, to accept and experience what grace will do by the Holy Spirit.

To the Corinthians, Paul writes of some being carnal, and still babes, walking as men after the flesh ; others being spiritual, with spiritual discernment and character. To the Galatians, he speaks of the liberty with which Christ, by the Spirit, makes free from the law, in contrast to those who sought to perfect in the flesh, what was begun in the Spirit, and who gloried in the flesh; -all to call them to recognise the danger of the carnal, divided life, and to come at once to the life of faith, the life in the Spirit, which alone is according to God's will.

Everywhere we see in Scripture, what the state of the Church at the present day confirms, that conversion is only the gate that leads into the path of life, and that within that gate there is still great danger of mistaking the path, of turning aside, or turning back, and that where this has taken place we are called at once, and with our whole heart, to turn and give ourselves to nothing less than all that Christ is willing to work in us.

Just as there are many who have always thought that conversion must be slow, and gradual, and uncertain, and cannot understand how it can be sudden and final, because they only take man's powers into account, so many cannot see how the revelation of the true life of holiness, and the entrance on it by faith out of a life of self effort and failure, may be immediate and permanent. They look too much to man's efforts, and know not how ***** the second blessing is nothing more nor less than a new vision of what Christ is willing to work in us, and the surrender of faith that yields all to Him *****

I would fain hope that what I have written in this book may help some to see that *****the second blessing is just what they need, is what God by His Spirit will work in them, is nothing but the acceptance of Christ in all His saving power as our strength and life, and is what will bring them into, and fit them for, that full life in the New Covenant, in which God works all in all. *****

Let me close this note with a quotation from the introduction to a little book just published, Dying to Self: A Golden Dialogue, by William Law, with notes by A. M. :

"A great deal has been said against the use of the terms, the Higher Life, the Second Blessing. In Law one finds nothing of such language, but of the deep truth of which they are the, perhaps defective, expression, his book is full. The points on which so much stress is laid in what is called Keswick teaching, stand prominently out in his whole argument. The low state of the average life of believers, the cause of all failure as coming from self-confidence, the need of an entire surrender of the whole being to the operation of God, the call to turn to Christ as the One and Sure Deliverer from the power of self, the Divine certainty of a better life for all who will in self-despair trust Christ for it, and the heavenly joy of a life in which the Spirit of Love fills the heart-these truths are common to both. What makes Law's putting of the truth of special value is the way in which he shows how humility and utter self-despair, with the resignation to God's mighty working in simple faith, is the infallible way to be delivered from self, and have the Spirit of Love born in the heart."


 2017/7/29 10:59Profile

Joined: 2011/8/20
Posts: 1775



I am not disputing that there are many who have had a special and overwhelming experience of the peace and joy and power of the Holy Spirit. My own thought on this is that there are too many Christians who are still “babes” and the Holy Spirit in them is grieved and quenched. So God gives a special filling of the Spirit to get His work done in them and/or through them. How else can there be revival in a parched and dry land?

Brother no one here is saying that Holy Spirit comes upon a person only during baptism of Holy Spirit. All the verses you quoted only show that we receive Holy Spirit when we are born again. Which is true. Holy Spirit is inside every believer. It is the Holy Spirit who made them repent initially and also made them believe that their sins are forgiven.

Some receive Baptism of Holy Spirit during the time they are born again. But not all. I did not receive the fullness when I was born again. The main reason was, God did not want to share his glory with me. My self power was so strong and I thought I can live the Christian life by my own effort. God waited till I failed completely. Now I have nothing to boast. I know apart from him I can do nothing. The self is totally broken.


 2017/7/29 11:02Profile

Joined: 2016/6/15
Posts: 756

 Re: Esther

John 16:7 (KJV) -- Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


 2017/7/29 11:04Profile

Joined: 2016/6/4
Posts: 949
Johannesburg, South Africa


Some great points Jade, thank you.

Speaking of the Spirit, in his sermon Peter mentions that they will experience "times of refreshing in the presence of the Lord"

Sound pretty powerful, knowable and tangible, doesn't it?

We all agree that a born again believer has the Spirit dwelling in him. But not all are walking in the ministry of the Holy Spirit as in His manifestation and gifts.

You quote the scriptures which also seem to differentiate:
In one, He is a well......quenching our personal thirst
In the other He is streams of living water...ministering to others

Many acknowledge Him as the well but have not trusted Him for the rivers?


 2017/7/29 11:06Profile

Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2008
Joplin, Missouri


Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

And there is 1 baptism in total

I think it is important that we look at scripture in full context. Paul is not here trying to do anything even close to make a point that there are not multiple baptisms in scripture. He is trying to make the point to the church at Ephesus that they should be striving to keep the unity of the Spirit. He is saying this (paraphrased).

Look guys. You need to be striving to stay in unity. Aren't you all part of the same body of Christ? Aren't you in fellowship with the same spirit? Don't you all have the same hope of your calling...Weren't you all baptized with the same baptism?

If you will look carefully, this is exactly what 1 Cor. 12:13 is saying. If you will study scripture carefully, there are multiple types of baptisms.


 2017/7/29 12:59Profile

Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3593


Andrew Murray- The Baptism of the Spirit:

Have You Received the Holy Spirit Since You Believed?
By Derek Prince


 2017/7/29 15:20Profile

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