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yuehan
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Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 510


 Re:

Hi Diane,

Quote:
The more I have been "immersed" in the issue, the more I suspect that God will target this group in his great Covenant Promise - to heal, transform, and forgive. And it may be the rest of us who are silenced and humbled.


Amen to this statement of yours, Diane.

On this LGBT issue - there's been much attention among evangelical churches on holding steadfast to the truth of the law. This is important - we must be supportive of their efforts and do likewise.

Yet let us not forget that Jesus came primarily not to preach the truth of the law, but the truth of the gospel of grace. The truth of the gospel is greater than the truth of the law (John 1:17).

To water down the truth of the law is to water down our need of the gospel (Galatians 3:24). Such attempts might tickle ears, but ultimately hinders the sinner from receiving his healing from God.

The gospel of grace brings about transformation of lives - bringing total and complete liberty to those in captivity (John 8:36). If we claim that the gospel is being preached, then where are the testimonies?

I contend that we don't hear many testimonies of freedom (e.g. from bondages to LGBT desires, pornography, alcoholism, drug addiction, etc.) even among the evangelical community, because the gospel is poorly understood and weakly preached. Many have even ceased to believe that God is willing to heal and does heal - just like swine trampling on pearls, I have witnessed testimonies of freedom from LGBT desires being dismissed by professing evangelicals.

It is thus fundamentally not an LGBT crisis or porn crisis - it is a gospel crisis!

I believe God is intent on restoring gospel authority among His people. And like you, Diane - I look forward to a fuller display of God's glory through His people. God has given me assurance to that end, and I rejoice in that hope - for how can we not be excited about what God is doing?

 2017/7/15 19:12Profile
followthelamb
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Joined: 2010/12/7
Posts: 1298
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re:

Hi Diane, you said:

"It’s time to be silenced!! The treatment of Eugene Peterson by the “moral police” is abhorrent and unmerciful. I hope many read his response and are silenced and repentant. He’s had to shut himself away from the media vultures – and also those who are hovering over, quick to condemn. He’s a dear brother!!! The Church cannot afford to be so torn apart by self-righteousness, picking on hypothetical points and whatever smells of sin."

I just wanted to share that even years ago in 2014 he expressed similar sentiments, which is no small thing. According to the man who did the most recent interview with Mr. Peterson:

"...in 2014...Peterson shares insights that are interesting in light of recent events. Below is the video of the Q and A with Peterson at Western Seminary.

Around the 2:23 mark, Peterson talks about being raised in a culture when gay was “really bad.” He says, “I accepted the status quo.” But recently, Peterson says, he thought about two homosexual men in his church, one who committed suicide and another who was divorced by his wife.

The result, Peterson said, was that, “I started to change my mind.”

Around the 2:31 mark, Peterson is asked about how to pastor families whose children come out as gay. He says, “I’ve helped several families accept their children as gay. And, uh, they are devastated at first and then with just careful, prayerful conversation, they’ve finally accepted that this is not a bad thing, that this can be a good thing. This can be a flourishing thing.”

Around the 2:36 mark, Peterson says, “I’ve paid attention to the literature that’s written on homosexuality by evangelicals, by mainline people. And when people, a lot of pastors have asked me about this, call about it, and I copy these things.” He references an article “in the Christian Century right now” that he calls “brilliant” and “masterful.”

What was the article Peterson lauded and recommended? It was titled, “What is marriage now? A Pauline case for same-sex marriage” by Gerald Schlabach."

 2017/7/15 20:40Profile
followthelamb
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Joined: 2010/12/7
Posts: 1298
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re: Church of England: LGBT 'Not a Sin'

Also, I just wanted to reply to one other thought shared

"Jesus poured out his grace on the "worst sinners" of his day. Who are considered the worst of sinners today? Yes, the homosexuals. Some day we will be silenced of all our ramblings about their sins, as they proclaim the grace of God!"


May many of them indeed one day proclaim the grace of God-- the grace of God that saved them from a perverse and sinful lifestyle that would have otherwise kept them from heaven. May He indeed open their eyes and in His mercy deliver them and us from the deceitfulness of sin.

But we should also note that in these last days, it is He Himself, the God of grace who will allow those who love their sins to be swept away. For it is written,

"...they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this reason God will send them a strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

That they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

(2 Thessalonians 2:10-12)



We want to be very careful to be loving and gentle and prayerful but there a time is coming and now is when the call is going out: "Who is on the Lord's side?"

He spilled His Blood for us and carried our sins in His body on the tree and He wants LGBT people to turn from their sin and run to Him, but He will not bless perversity masquerading as righteousness.

 2017/7/15 20:48Profile
yuehan
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Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 510


 Re:

Thanks for highlighting the grave errors in Eugene Peterson's doctrine, followthelamb.

We simply cannot arrive at God's understanding unless we commence with His definition of words. Looks like Peterson's views on the issue are rooted in unbiblical definitions of words - his opinion rests on a faulty foundation, there is no truth in them.

I had written extensively on this great deception in a previous forum thread, based on my observations of the evangelical community in recent times:

"The Trojan Horse of LGBT Concepts, and the Lack of Gospel Transformation"
https://img.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic_pdf.php?topic_id=58125&forum=35

May we learn to minister the truth of God in love to all who need them.


 2017/7/15 21:59Profile









 Re:

Hi Diane,

Not sure where you live or to what kind of company that you have been exposed to, but I have not witnessed in all of my travels the "un-mercifulness," of which you speak. Any examples of un-mercifulness in your church or in you area that you could share with us?

What I have seen in my own travels is poor saints literally ripped apart because they believe homosexuality to be a sin. If they are known to believe that, they are set apart and labeled by liberal minded folks savagely. The labels are endless and of course labels are the new weapons of today. It used to be an act of passive aggression but the passive part is rather rapidly being replaced.

Many saints in Britain can now no longer even adopt children if they believe in the fundamental truths of the Bible. Society as a whole is turning against the saints. Pastors are too afraid to preach the truth from the pulpit, street pastors are arrested and so on because the the baying hateful crowd who detest genuine Christianity.

So let me ask you straight out Diane since we have been dancing around the issue. Do you believe that homosexuality is a legitimate alternative lifestyle? Or, do you believe it is sinful? Do you believe in ordaining homosexual ministers and marrying homosexuals? ................bro Frank

 2017/7/15 22:02
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5635
NC, USA

 Re:

If a person feels he/she is a homosexual/lesbian but remains celibate, is he/she sinning, or is the feeling itself sinning?

Heterosexuals can obviously sin sexually but having heterosexual feelings is not sinning.

I cannot think of where the scriptures address the "feeling" aspect; it seems actual behavior is addressed. Of course I might be missing or not remembering some scripture.

If the feeling itself is not sin, it is conceivable how a church would be accepting of people with these feelings. However, acceptance of a lifestyle of acting out on those feelings (i.e. sinning) is an entirely different matter.


_________________
Todd

 2017/7/15 22:31Profile
yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 510


 Re:

Hi TMK,

What do you mean by "homosexual feelings" or "heterosexual feelings"?

Is that the same as heterosexual lust? In which case, Jesus clearly states that it is a sin in Matthew 5:27-32.

Pornography addiction, fornication, adultery etc. - they are but symptoms of an underlying problem with lust. The way of breaking the bondage to homosexual lust is the same as that for heterosexual lust, and the solution is provided in Scriptures such as Romans 8 and Romans 12:2.


 2017/7/16 2:55Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5635
NC, USA

 Re:

//What do you mean by "homosexual feelings" or "heterosexual feelings//

Many homosexuals will say that they knew this about themselves at a young age, even 5 or 6.

There is a difference between "interest" and lusting. A heterosexual knows he is interested in females but that doesn't mean he is lusting every second of the day.

So I guess my question is whether this same thing can be true for homosexuals- can they realize they have an "interest" without sinning?

I realize this is something of a hypothetical question.


_________________
Todd

 2017/7/16 8:21Profile
yuehan
Member



Joined: 2011/6/15
Posts: 510


 Re:

Quote:
Many homosexuals will say that they knew this about themselves at a young age, even 5 or 6.

There is a difference between "interest" and lusting. A heterosexual knows he is interested in females but that doesn't mean he is lusting every second of the day.

So I guess my question is whether this same thing can be true for homosexuals- can they realize they have an "interest" without sinning?

I realize this is something of a hypothetical question.


But how are you specifically defining "interest" / "attraction" / "feelings", and how is that related to lust?

It is important that we use biblical language here. The Bible speaks of sinful desires i.e. lust, and lust in turn can lead to sinful behaviour. The concept of "sexual orientation" is non-existent in the Bible.

Feelings are misleading - they are not a compass to truth. For example: a lot of the times we feel like sinners, yet God speaks of us as saints in His Word. That identity is assigned to us, and is irrespective of what we do or what we feel.

That perverse sexual desires begin at a young age does not vindicate the "orientation" argument either. Some of those with pedophilic desires would say that their feelings begin at a young age - we have no reason to doubt their account, but do we then speak of a pedophilic orientation?

Of course, some in the secular world have already understood the "logic" consequence of their views, and have begun to argue for acceptance of a "pedophilic orientation". However, many churches are not smart enough to realize the same - they are just following the Pied Piper of the secular world to wherever he might lead.


On a meta-level - I would say that whether something is a sin or not is a less important topic than the truth of the gospel. Jesus came to break the bondage of sin, and gave us power to be children of God. The Christian life is not characterized by struggle, but by victory.

Much of the New Testament is about victory - we can either believe there is victory and press in, or we arrogantly believe that we've experienced all there is to the Christian life. Some find victory from their bondages and others don't - why? I believe it is their trust in God and His Word that made the difference.


 2017/7/16 13:55Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5635
NC, USA

 Re:

Maybe an analogy would help--

Is desiring to get drunk a sin, or is it the act of getting drunk? Desire does not have to lead to sin- right? Being tempted is not sin.

My point is that a person who has homosexual feelings need not act on those feelings.

And I am infinity miles away from trying to create any slippery slope or whatever you want to call it for pedophilia.

I am just addressing the reality of what homosexuals say about what they feel inside. I agree God does not intend for them to have those feelings. I agree the underlying heart issue must be rooted out but in the meantime it would seem celibacy is the proper course of action.


_________________
Todd

 2017/7/16 14:06Profile





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