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Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Quote "Half of England is atheist, half Muslim and the other half is deceived."

Tim, your Math made me smile :) 150%? Well as a Brit living here I would guess we may have at least 2% true bible believing Christians, probably more. There are nowhere near 50% (30 Million) Muslims in the UK. The figure is around 3 million (that's 5% of pop) and a large proportion of those would be 'nominal' Muslims, not dedicated Islamists.

So if we take into account the 'nominal Christians (e.g CofE) and nominal Muslims, Hindus, sikhs, et al you probably have around 70% being either agnostic or having some belief in a god. There is only a small percentage of real Atheists

However, I agree with your sentiments, even if the Math is a bit OTT. :)

"Britain is a post Christian country...........bro Frank"

Absolutely true. But isn't most of the Western world now post Christian? Problem is the USA thinks it is still Christian! In reality it is just another form of 'evangelical' apostate Christianity.

The C of E has long been apostate (as long as I have been alive) and is not representative of the true Christian church in England, which as I have indicated is very small as a percentage of the population. But wasn't it always so?
You can go back a few hundred years and there were the bible believing dissenters (Baptists, etc) who were persecuted by the state Church (CofE) because they refused to recognise it.

Yes there is much pandering to the Muslims as well as the Gay minority, so they appear to be much larger in number than they are.


_________________
Dave

 2017/7/12 7:22Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
Diane, the focus is not on one symptom, the focus is on what is true and what is not.



Bro Frank, I believe you have missed my point because of my sketchy explanation.
A lot of the divisiveness surrounding the gay issue/gay ordination indeed arises out of obsession over ONE presenting symptom, one particular behavior, with little regard for the whole individual – or the cultural climate in which such things arise. What about the related issues of identity, longing for acceptance, and so forth … all driving factors tainted by sin. A hornet’s nest of sin issues apply to LGBT interest group. Consider the problem of unforgiveness, which is now given an honorable status. Today the revered voice is the voice of offense. Naturally. When God is lost, mercy is lost. I ask: Is the absence of mercy not the worst sin problem? That problem would destroy us all – apart from God’s mercy on us.

We’ll get nowhere if we put homosexuality at the top of the sin list. The Bible doesn’t do that. It’s we who do that to the Bible.

There’s plenty of Romans 2 kind of Christians around, and they are just as much of the problem. If all we can do is bash out verses against homosexuality, we convince no one but ourselves, and we are merely dry springs. The “other side” bashes out their own set of verses or defenses and decide we hate them. No one gets a taste of Christ who alone can heal the disease of sin and bring meaning, purpose, and true identity into one’s life. Meanwhile, each side reinforces their righteousness.

Those who drift into fruitless and harmful ways of living (intentional or not) do so as a way of trying to make life work for them – WITHOUT GOD (the root sin). That’s our cultural climate today. So, what does that mean for us believers? Stick to our job! It’s a ministry of reconciliation… mercy. (see 2 Corinthians 17-21)

Frank, I’m sure you agree. Hope that’s a better explanation of my thoughts.

Diane



_________________
Diane

 2017/7/12 11:08Profile









 Re:

Hi Diane, the majority of genuine saints I know are not homosexual bashers or obsessed with that one sin. It is the slippery slope that is the real problem that brings this sin sharply into focus. What do I mean by that? Well, once the homosexual community had gay marriage legally recognized, at least in the States, then the next part of the agenda was to marginalize anyone who would make a stand for truth. If one is asked an opinion on the sin of homosexuality and one gives a correct answer, that one is termed a hater or a homophobe or a deplorable or irredeemable. The attack is coming from the sinner against the saint Diane, not the other way around.

So, if I am happily sitting in the pew and it is announced from the pulpit that the church I belong to now accepts gay pastors and will be marrying homosexual couples, then I have to reconcile that with what I believe. So, the sin of this age that wants to to attack the pillars of truth simply needs to be responded to with courage and conviction and love.

As for the cultural climate Diane, I am sure you would agree that this changes over and over again, yet the word of God never changes. The saint is not called to lick his finger and stick it in the air and consider what ways the cultural winds are blowing. We serve, as again I know you would agree, an immutable God.

As for identity and longing for acceptance Diane, as one who had a lesbian niece stay with me for two years and met her girlfriend and many of her friends ( and had frank discussion :)I can speak with confidence. The gay community does not and has never wanted acceptance. In fact, if you do not acknowledge their lifestyle as a legitimate alternative to heterosexuality, then, in their eyes, you are a hater. Live and let live is not what they are after, in fact they would rather be hated for who they are than merely be accepted in the community.....bro Frank

 2017/7/12 21:39
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
The gay community does not and has never wanted acceptance.



I would challenge that, Frank. It’s an innate need, the need to belong. We’re created to belong to God. But sin has turned that natural need into destructive behaviors.

Presently my congregation is divided over the gay ordination issue. I’ve heard all the stuff you describe. I’ve seen a lot of mercilessness, esp on the “pro” side, but the other side too, though far less. If we stick to character qualities alone, we could have enough to focus on without mentioning sexual orientation. Mostly, it’s an issue over approach to scripture –scripture submit to man, vs man submit to scripture. That’s the real divide, but no one wants to talk about that – and it’s easier to talk about homosexuality. There’s also the clergy/laity divide which has become unbiblical. Correcting that in itself could take care of the gay issue. They say, “Follow the dollar”. That’s the underlying momentum – money, status, pension for wan-a-be gay clergy. If there was no money in it, I doubt that there would have been such a fuss… It wouldn’t pay off.

The gay ordination overture is a foolish appeal. Sadly, there will be no winner in the final vote! Regardless of who “wins”, half the congregation is gone. And that’s a loss for all. That’s the tragic outcome of placing the divide where the apostle Paul did not put the divide. The divide is not pro or against any issue – but the divide is between God and sinner (all people) –and we all need mercy.

Quote:
The attack is coming from the sinner against the saint Diane, not the other way around.


It seems to be that way, yet Eph. 6 notes that our struggle is NOT against flesh and blood people, but principalities. It’s a spiritual battle, but we make it into a divide between people groups. And each defends their self-righteousness.

As much as I denounce the demands for gay ordination, safe spaces, or whatever is on the social palate, I am deeply concerned about the habit of stopping before the end of Romans 1 in our biblical defenses against homosexuality. That’s abortive theology! What about the next chapter.. and the next.

Part of OUR problem is our propensity to grab the “carrot” our opponents dangle before us. It derails us – and gives them the upper hand. They’ve got lots of support - gov’t, schools, Hollywood, and now the “thought police” which is arising to revered status. I don’t think we’ll stop the slippery slope, Frank – not on the sexual identity issues. It’s the wrong battle ground. ... don't you think?


_________________
Diane

 2017/7/13 12:31Profile









 Re: Church of England: LGBT 'Not a Sin'

"Your choice is either accept the Bible teaching about this or reject it, but the Bible is clear nonetheless. So what we cannot do is claimed that the Bible doesn't actually condemn homosexuality or has nothing to say on the issue because it clearly does. And we certainly can't twist or bend or manipulate or change the plain teaching of these verses to fit with our own politically correct Post-Modern world views and preferences. The Bible says what it says, it couldn't be any clearer, except it or reject it, it is up to you. But to twist the word of GOD to make out that the Biblical GOD is okay about homosexuality is in the Bible own words "to fool yourselves" and when you fool yourself, GOD will eventually abandoned you to your foolish thinking, HE will stop striving with you and He will cut you adrift..."

~ Mark Fairley

 2017/7/13 19:42









 Re:

Hi Diane, couple of Scriptures to consider...........

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
(Eph 5:3-6)

There is a warning of deception in these passages, vain words can deceive the flock especially in matters relating to the flesh.

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
(Gal 6:7-8)

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
(1Co 6:9-10)


You see the pattern sister, there is a great propensity to be deceived. We can overly spiritualize the scriptures when it comes to speaking of not battling against flesh or blood but against principalities and powers. We must remember that the forces of spiritual wickedness uses flesh and blood to come against the saints. Does that mean we battle them in the flesh. Well if by battle some would think actual physical fighting then no. But by wielding the truth in righteousness and love then we battle the enemy who is found in his own followers.

Now, how does any of that relate to what we are speaking of? Well, a great lie has invaded Christendom. Right has become wrong. A gross darkness has come in and it of course it is a divider. For what fellowship has light with darkness Diane? Can salt water flow from a fresh mountain river?

The next great lie to come, and mark my words once the gay issue is settled in the denominations, it will come, is, that there are many paths to heaven. So sister the battle ground in our time and really it has been the battle ground in every generation, is the Truth. Will we stand in the evil day upon the foundation of Christ which is the Way the Truth and the life. These issues, in my opinion, are designed to aggravate and perpetuate the great falling away sister. Maybe you will have to leave something that you have belonged to all of your life, maybe your parents and your grandparents went there as well. The question in the end for all of us will be " how important is the truth." Is it more important than your church, your family, your community, your desire to love and get along with people, your standing in your own circle of influence, your job, your career, in short, everything. Those who will follow the narrow path that leads to life will discover that the path is paved with truth. And the foundation of the narrow path is love. When we speak the truth in love then hell shakes. It will not be apathetic to you, it will come against you. This is the battle ground sister. Put on the full armor and stand fast because the enemy knows his time is short............bro Frank

 2017/7/13 23:13
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Thank you Frank,
The more I have been "immersed" in the issue, the more I suspect that God will target this group in his great Covenant Promise - to heal, transform, and forgive. And it may be the rest of us who are silenced and humbled.

Isn't that what Jesus often did in the gospels?

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2017/7/14 15:44Profile









 Re:

Hi Diane, if you mean the saints will be silenced from sharing and standing upon the truth then I disagree Diane. Perhaps you meant something different?..........bro Frank

 2017/7/14 20:40
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
if you mean the saints will be silenced from sharing and standing upon the truth then I disagree



I suspect that God views the un-mercifulness of the Romans 2 type of Christians today as a greater sin than the entire list of sinners in Romans 1 – including the homosexuals.

Jesus poured out his grace on the very ones whom, in that day, the moral police most condemned – the tax collectors and prostitutes. I’m sure Jesus would have added the homosexuals if they were on the radar of these moral police. Maybe there weren't many around Palestine.

Jesus condemned a lot of sins which we easily live in without batting an eyelash – barely realizing that they apply to us. What about those who likewise fail to see sins which apply to them - like homosexuality or rebellion. Yet they are unchurched, deceived, or not very familiar with the Bible or those verses – the very ones we’ve highlighted, underscored and circled so often that we we’ve burned a hole through the page.

It’s time to be silenced!! The treatment of Eugene Peterson by the “moral police” is abhorrent and unmerciful. I hope many read his response and are silenced and repentant. He’s had to shut himself away from the media vultures – and also those who are hovering over, quick to condemn. He’s a dear brother!!! The Church cannot afford to be so torn apart by self-righteousness, picking on hypothetical points and whatever smells of sin. The lefties are taking advantage of this craziness, and making inroads because of it.

Jesus poured out his grace on the "worst sinners" of his day. Who are considered the worst of sinners today? Yes, the homosexuals. Some day we will be silenced of all our ramblings about their sins, as they proclaim the grace of God! Jesus will turn over the tables!

Here’s Peterson’s defense. It's too bad this was needed:
http://aliveliterary.com/eugene-peterson-issues-revised-statement-following-religion-news-service-interview/




_________________
Diane

 2017/7/15 14:51Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?

1Co 5:7

Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.[fn]

1Co 5:8

Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavenedbread of sincerity and truth.

1Co 5:9q



I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.

1Co 5:10

Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.

1Co 5:11

But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

1Co 5:12



For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?


_________________
Dave

 2017/7/15 18:00Profile





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