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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Book of Enoch

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proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
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 Re:

If we do not have faith that the Lord in His Sovereignty call's, lead's and guard's not only the original giving of the Scriptures but also the Translation process.

Than logic would naturally question other things such as the canon.

But if we believe that the Lord has specifically purposed certain translations, than we have no question/doubt that He faithfully purposed also the Canon of those Scripture's.

clarity







 2017/7/10 0:10Profile
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 Re:

Saints,

I believe there is great value in writings that surround the scriptures, that does not mean we should read them as scriptures. The early church in AD 300 compiled the canon, they had MANY texts that they considered, these other texts where not evil or wrong and were so godly and used in churches that some of them were considered for the scriptures. So why would we not want to read some of those texts.

Just because something does not make it into the canon does not mean it is spurious, it is just not inspired. But there were lots of accounts of good writings that have historical and oral traditions of sayings, accounts, names, etc that have value.

I believe every believer should read the writings of Clement who wrote to the Corinthian Church that Paul wrote to. Also "Ignatius and Polycarp" who were disciples of the Apostle John himself.

Many believers do not know that the "apocrypha" was in the KJV bible translations until the 1850's I believe. These 14 books were written between (the period between 450 BC and 50 AD).

Martin Luther considered them valuable enough to keep them in the Scripture translation he made, he put them at the end of the Old Testament before the New Testament.

I agree with this quote and think that there is value in reading these: "We should therefore approach the Apocrypha with a discerning mind and heart, and carefully discriminate between that which is in harmony with the essentials of the Christian faith and that which deviates from what is taught in the 66 books of the canon."


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2017/7/10 6:56Profile









 Re:

Brother Greg, please allow me a quick reply
"The early church in AD 300 compiled the canon..."
but God's Hand was in the process and He didn't miss anything
"Martin Luther considered them valuable enough..." so what? He wasn't an Apostle
"it is just not inspired..." are you saying there is "just" a minor difference between what is inspired and what is not?
Something that God Himself inspired is of infinite value and it is His Holy Word. We should not even compare it with other writings.

"We should therefore approach the Apocrypha with a discerning mind ..."
Where do we now draw the line then? Why not approach the book of Mormons, or all those Novels etc.with a discerning mind ? Can't you see where this is all leading to ? Endless debates and less and less unity.
And who likes that most ?

Ephesians 3v8 Though I am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9and to illuminate for everyone the stewardship of this mystery, which for ages past was hidden in God, who created all things.…

 2017/7/10 20:22
TMK
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Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 5864
NC, USA

 Re:

It has been repeated and repeated that Enoch is not scripture. It is therefore just literature, perhaps historical literature. I didn't say true or inspired, I said historical. Some of it may be true, perhaps none is.

It seems there are those arguing it should not be read even as a historical document as if there is something to fear.

There are lots of ancient early Christian writings that are fruitful to read, like the Didache or Shepherd of Hermes.

Of course scripture is the only inspired word of God. That does not mean that everything else is taboo to read.


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Todd

 2017/7/10 21:11Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2012
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

You are correct in my opinion Todd. I have been blessed by reading much of the Antenicene Father's writings. But I read them much as I would read a book by a modern Christian author. Great history. Wonderful for understanding the climate and thinking of the early church. But what I read is weighted carefully against what I know to be scripture and accepted or rejected based upon that comparison. The same is true with the book of Enoch. Whether we believe it was actually written by Enoch and preserved on the ark by Noah (my personal opinion), or whether we believe it was written later, we can still read it and gain some insight. Apparently the apostles did.


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Travis

 2017/7/10 21:43Profile
Martyr
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Joined: 2012/6/10
Posts: 225
United States

 Re:

quote: Brother Greg, please allow me a quick reply
"The early church in AD 300 compiled the canon..."
but God's Hand was in the process and He didn't miss anything
"Martin Luther considered them valuable enough..." so what? He wasn't an Apostle
"it is just not inspired..." are you saying there is "just" a minor difference between what is inspired and what is not?
Something that God Himself inspired is of infinite value and it is His Holy Word. We should not even compare it with other writings.

The determination of the canon was not determined by the apostles. It was determined by the roman catholic church at the council of carthage:

"It was also determined that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in the Church under the title of divine Scriptures. The Canonical Scriptures are these: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two books of Paraleipomena, Job, the Psalter, five books of Solomon, the books of the twelve prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezechiel, Daniel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two Books of the Maccabees. Of the New Testament: four books of the Gospels, one book of the Acts of the Apostles, thirteen Epistles of the Apostle Paul, one epistle of the same [writer] to the Hebrews, two Epistles of the Apostle Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude, one book of the Apocalypse of John. Let this be made known also to our brother and fellow-priest Boniface, or to other bishops of those parts, for the purpose of confirming that Canon. Because we have received from our fathers that those books must be read in the Church. Let it also be allowed that the Passions of Martyrs be read when their festivals are kept."

Why do you now discard their decision? Do you guys not realize that these men determined what books were in the bible by their LOGIC and reasoning of what seemed right or wrong? If you say you trust God was leading them I ask why you discard the apocrypha. Jesus quoted from the apocrypha:

Hebrews 5:12/Wisdom 7:24
1 Corinthians 15:50/Wisdom 7:25b
John 5:19/Wisdom 7:26a
Romans 9:20-21/Wisdom 15:7
2 Corinthians 5:4a/Wisdom 9:15b
James 3:17/Wisdom 7:22
Luke 12:19-21/Sirach 5:7-9
Matthew 6:7/Sirach 7:14
Romans 12:15/Sirach 7:34
2 Corinthians 6:14-15/Sirach 13:16-18
James 1:13/Sirach 15:11-12
Matthew 6:14a/Sirach 28:2

Neither Jesus or the apostles quoted from Ruth, Judges, or Esther and yet we consider them canonical.

If you really want to believe God is a protestant and led all of history to finally give them a perfect 66 book bible then I'll leave you in your absurdity and pride. God is bigger than us and maybe, just maybe, our way of thinking has been influenced by men from the past who weren't necessarily right.

For the record I do not think the book of Enoch is inspired. Why? It doesn't sit right. Go ahead and criticize but something in my spirit irks me about it and I will go by that because I trust the Lord and have an open heart to His truth wherever it may be found. If I am wrong he will show me, if not then I am okay.


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Tyler

 2017/7/10 21:51Profile
Martyr
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Joined: 2012/6/10
Posts: 225
United States

 Re:

TMK: Of course scripture is the only inspired word of God. That does not mean that everything else is taboo to read.

And what scriptures are those? The recent 66 book version? I don't mean to poke fun I simply want to point out that you are standing on thin ground. You are submitting to one authority that says 66 but that authority rebelled against THEIR authority and removed the books (Catholic to protestantism). Check your foundation brother.

Many church fathers considered the Shepherd inspired. Are they heretics to have preached that book as scripture? Maybe believing in a 66 book bible is not as necessary towards salvation as the protestant reformation would have us believe. Maybe belief in the scriptures isn't necessary at all for salvation but only belief in the WORD of God, Christ is. Maybe then He will lead us and guide is into all truth as we openly and truthfully search for Him with no outside walls telling us where we can. Scary isn't it? Wheres the authority? Whats keeping us from gaining "heretical" thoughts? But when there are no walls then there is none of that, just open honesty with the Spirit of God and His freedom to mold and shape us as he sees fit.

I am not against the authority of the church. The church is supposed to be a body of people who God has raised and molded to lead His people. Unfortunately He's only able to do so within the confines of protestantism (or even catholicism) because people have drawn lines, we accepted those lines and our growth can only extend to them but never beyond them because then we might be a heretic.

God help us.


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Tyler

 2017/7/10 22:04Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

case in point.

At least Tyler's logic is consistant

 2017/7/10 22:18Profile
Martyr
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Joined: 2012/6/10
Posts: 225
United States

 Re:

Proudpapa: You expressed fear in your last post of getting to the point of questioning the canon. Who told you to fear that? The bible says nothing about it. It is not listed as a sin. It is not forbidden. Far as I can tell there's nothing wrong with it unless you are trying to preserve certain beliefs and outlooks that can only be maintained with a certain view of what the bible is and says. Then its a problem


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Tyler

 2017/7/10 22:23Profile
proudpapa
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Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


 Re:

Tyler,

The fear is for other people.

 2017/7/10 22:37Profile





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