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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : End time teaching of Elijah in the last days

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 Re:

/There's nothing in Revelation that must happen before the rapture./

Paul said that day and our gathering to Him would not occur until the man of sin is revealed. II These 2:1-10. Has the man of sin been revealed yet?

The events of Matt 24:29-31 describe the second coming of Christ at the end of the age and occur "AFTER the tribulation" of those days (verse 29). It's amazing in my opinion how much ignoring of plain context and scripture wresting the pre-tribes view had to resort to.


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David Winter

 2017/7/1 21:57Profile
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 Re:

Quote: """Paul said that day and our gathering to Him would not occur until the man of sin is revealed. II These 2:1-10. Has the man of sin been revealed yet?"""

That is in--is in Daniel 11, The abomination, which Christ said to look for as the closeness of the Rapture, which will occur at the same time or shortly after the abomination revealed, which is before the trumpets and bowls occur, which is in the 7th seal, which is after the rapture and the bride clothed in white is already in heaven attending the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Revelation 8:1-3 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Where are all the saints? Is this not the seventh seal? Then the sixth seal is the rapture with all the same signs as in Mathew Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Revelation which read the same event: Revelation 6:13-14 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


/There's nothing in Revelation that must happen before the rapture/ """nothing in Revelation""" 2nd Thes 2: 1-10 is not in revelation.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2017/7/2 2:02Profile
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 Re:

Then if the abomination must occur before the rapture then there is something revealed in Revelation that must occur before a rapture. Its been my experience that the pre-trib view is built around such exegetical jumps in logic. You say nothing in Rev remains in the way of the rapture occurring but then say the abomination must occur before the rapture occurs shortly thereafter.

To say no Gentiles will be saved during the tribulation is highly sectarian in my opinion and shuts up the door of salvation to someone just because they missed a supposed rapture. My Bible says all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved and when one is saved they become a priest before God. No view but the pre-trib denies this.

Thanks.


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David Winter

 2017/7/2 4:52Profile
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 Re:

Quote: """Then if the abomination must occur before the rapture then there is something revealed in Revelation that must occur before a rapture."""

Please show me where in revelation the, "revealed in Revelation" is. I guess I am not being clear, There is nothing more written or to be revealed in revelation after the sixth seal before the Rapture. The seventh seal is past the rapture which has already occurred.

The abomination is separate and revealed in Daniel 11.
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

This is not revealed in revelation anywhere but Jesus said we should understand the rapture is close by His statement of Matt 24:15. For in 14 more verses He reveals the rapture and confirms what Paul said in 1Thess 4 with John in the 6th seal by the same signs in the sun, moon and stars etc.
More confirmation in 1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. We know this last trump is the end of the dispensation of Grace, not the 7th trump because the bowls are still coming, which takes aprox 3 years, then the Lord Jesus comes to earth to set up His Kingdom.

You keep trying to twist my words that the statement is wrong so you can confirm your take on when the rapture will occur and salvation can be gained through the whole of the seven years of tribulation. If I am wrong I pray God shows me but if I am wright People cannot wait until after the rapture to come to the Lord. I don't want to see any not make it because they were waiting for proof because then it will be to late.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2017/7/2 6:01Profile
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 Re:

If Revelation portrays the rise of AC and the length of his short but fierce rule and then shows his demise it's natural to assume the abomination is somewhere within this period of time. The day of God Almighty spoken of in Rev 16:14 is the same Day of the Lord spoken of in II Thess 2:1. Then Paul says in II These 2:3 that this day will not come until the man of sin is revealed and he performs the AOD. So because the man of sin has not been revealed, a pre-trib rapture cannot be IMMINENT without anything else to be fulfilled before it supposedly happens. The revealing of the man of sin must occur first.

19 I will show wonders in heaven above and signs in the earth beneath: blood and fire and vapor of smoke.

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

21 And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Acts 2:19-21)

Having the door of grace slammed shut at a pre-trib rapture does spite to the Spirit of grace Himself in my opinion. Whoever calls on the name of the Lord before or during the tribulation will be saved. You have a last trumpet slamming this door shut and another last trumpet occurring at Christ's second coming. Until Darby Matt 24:14 was never interpreted as describing a pre-trib rapture. And you have a resurrection of the dead at a pre-trib rapture and another resurrection of the dead at the second coming which in pre-trib is a second coming after a earlier second coming. It just doesn't work for me and is not supported scripturally. I'll end here because I have to go to church and I appreciate the conversation but I will probably end my discussion here.

Thank you.


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David Winter

 2017/7/2 9:11Profile





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