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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : End time teaching of Elijah in the last days

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 Re:

I'm looking around a bit staff. Meanwhile, see if you might can find any online commentary by George Eldon Ladd.


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David Winter

 2017/6/24 19:45Profile
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 Re:

Hi Docs,
I looked him up but couldnt find a copy of the commentary online just excerpts,urs staff

 2017/6/25 6:15Profile
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 Re:

All is not lost. I have a book by him on Revelation. Maybe I can post some of it later. I understand better now your question about the time frame of the third woe and how it relates to the second 1,260 days.


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David Winter

 2017/6/25 7:35Profile
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 Re:

Verse Rev 11:14.

"John introduces the seventh trumpet as though there had been no interruption. The plagues of the last three trumpets constitute these three woes (9:12). The first two woes, which consisted of the plague of the fifth and sixth trumpets are past; the third woe - the seventh trumpet - is about to occur."

"Verse 15. When the angel sounded his trumpet, no woe immediately fell upon men. The woe involved in the seventh trumpet really consists of the seven bowls of 16:1-21. We must again be reminded of the literary parallelism in the structure of the Apocalypse. Each of the six seals (6:1-17) has a specific content; these are followed by an interlude affirming the security of God's people in the last days. The seventh seal (8:1) has of itself no specific content; instead, John describes the sounding of the seven trumpets (8:1-9:20). We have been forced to conclude that the seven trumpets themselves constituted the seventh seal. In the same way, the seventh trumpet, which is the third woe, contains no plague or woe; we must conclude that the seven bowls constitute the woe of the seventh trumpet."

"Instead of a woe or plague, loud voices in heaven announce the coming of the end. "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever." These heavenly voices announce that the time of the end has come, but the end itself is not yet described."

From "A Commentary on the Revelation of John" - by George Eldon Ladd.


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David Winter

 2017/6/25 9:00Profile
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 Re:

Hi Docs

11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they[e] heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly

1260 days the first half of the Tribulation
1260 days the second half of the Tribulation
3 ½ days lying bodies lying in the street
Subtotal 7 Years 3 ½ days

2ND Woe past and third woe is quickly coming

The third woe comes outside the 7 year period, the 3 ½ days and so also is the earthquake and the tenth of the city falling, as well as anything that happens after the Two witnesses being killed if the two witnesses minister from mid 7 years to the end of the 7 years.

What happens immediately after the tribulation is outlined below:
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken,

urs staff

 2017/6/25 13:47Profile
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 Re:

There are obviously some things to figure out but if the second woe is already past how can the two witnesses be placed in the first peaceful side of the tribulation? What continually keeps you from being able to see and acknowledge that?

Ladd's view is a beginning of an explanation if the third woe is part of the bowls.

The third woe etc is followed by an announcement that the time of the end has come. We may not have a clear explanation yet but the time of the end cannot be outside of the three and a half years of the second half.


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David Winter

 2017/6/25 14:02Profile
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 Re: Why would the AC make war against just two persons?

"And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit will make war upon them and conquer them and kill them." (Rev 11:7)

"When the two witnesses have fulfilled their divinely appointed mission, the beast is allowed to make war on them and to kill them. Too much should not be made of the metaphor of war; in chapter 12, war occurs in heaven between Michael and his angels and the dragon (Satan) (12:7-8), where it is obvious that "war" means a spiritual conflict. In the present passage, war is simply conquest by whatever means, not necessary by military weapons."

(George Eldon Ladd)


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David Winter

 2017/6/25 18:52Profile
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 Re:

Hi Docs
Ok I have Ive been looking at that on the one hand the third woe and everything after the witnesses death are outside the tribulation if they come in the second half of the trib and on the other hand the woes 1 and 2 would have to come in the first half of the trib ur before the witnesses have finished their ministry.
You see its not clear for any trib view (all have timeline problems) and for me the Noah and Lot examples that we have debated are very similar to the time of the Witnesses testimony.You see as I have said we look through a glass lit dimly and unless God lightens it up and adds inspiration to our study its just dry bones.
What keeps me from acknowledging that the witnesses come in the second half is the above Noah and lot resemblences and the timeline although it doesnt seem to fit for me on the peaceful front it doesnt fit that the witnesses come on the second half due to the timeline issue about the woes.
Also if the peace agreement is broken in the middle,their had to be peace in the first half of the agreement.But even at that I am using the broad meaning of peace in the sense that God was at peace as well not just the world.
Also if at the end of the tribulation everyone is able to party and give presents then the tribulation was much to do about nothing.
I agree though that somehow the woes,bowls,etc cant be outside of the 7 years,
urs staff

 2017/6/25 18:55Profile
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 Re:

How can woes come in the first half after you have repeatedly described the first half as a time of peace? Over and over you have described it as peaceful so why do you insist on imposing second half troubles into it? How can the time of the Two Witnesses be similar to Noah and Lot if the time of the Two Witnesses is a time of immense conflict and turmoil? You're fighting against what is there in black and white.

If they are portrayed as coming in the second held it doesn't change the fact they will powerfully come in the spirit and power of Elijah.

You're also likely still toying with the idea the church will be gone when the last trumpet signalling the church's translation is at the second coming.

But I don't mind talking about it until the cows come home. If my computer wasn't down right now we could email.


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 2017/6/25 20:33Profile
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 Re: Peace be Still




Problem solved...if you will receive it!

Foy E. Wallace's Commentary on the Book of Revelation

The testimony of the two witnesses--11:3-14.

1. Power unto my two witnesses: The statement I will give in reference to my two witnesses reveals that the speaker here is Christ, the angel of verse 1, the only One who could assume such rank and authority. The assurance I will give power is based on a promise of the Lord to the apostles in Matthew 10:18-20, that when they should be arraigned "for testimony" they should "take no thought how or what" to speak; and as in Mark 13:11, "take no thought beforehand, neither do ye premeditate"; and as in Luke 12:12, "the Holy Spirit shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say." This is the power here given to the witnesses.

The two witnesses are representative of the prophets and apostles whose testimony was "this gospel of the kingdom" which should be "preached in all the world for a witness" before the end should come-- Matthew 24:14. The dual testimony is based on the requirement of the law in Deuteronomy 19:15 that "at the mouth of two witnesses shall the matter be established," and repeated by Jesus in John 8:17, "it is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true"; the allusion to which is made also in Hebrews 10:28, "he that despised Moses' law died . . . under two or three witnesses."

These are the witnesses of Matthew 23:31-37, of whom the Lord said: "Ye are the children of them which killed the prophets . . . behold I send unto you prophets . . . and some of them ye shall kill . . . crucify . . . scourge . . . and persecute . . . 0 Jerusalem . . . that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee." They are representative of those mentioned further by Stephen in Acts 7:52, "which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted?' By the prophets of the old dispensation and the apostles of the new covenant, the testimony, divine revelation, was completed and by "the two witnesses" thereby established.

2. Prophesy . . . clothed in sackcloth: The word sackcloth was of Hebrew origin and was interfused into every language as a symbol of ill-fortune. It was the suit of mourning in death, the garb of humility and penitence under judgment, and the clothing of suffering in calamities and persecutions-as so mentioned in Job 16:15; Psalms 30:11; Jeremiah 4:8; Isaiah 29:2; and Zechariah 13:4.

The speaker in this vision told John that his two witnesses should prophesy clothed in sackcloth, as a sign of great affliction and as a token of the extreme suffering that their testimony should cause to come upon them, portraying retrospectively the altar scenes of chapter 6:9-11, and prospectively all of the tribulations yet to be unfolded, of which the two witnesses were representatives.

3. A thousand two hundred three-score: The forty-two months equal twelve hundred sixty days, computed mathematically (42 x 30 ==1260), which is in the text declared to be "a thousand two hundred and three score days." The reader is requested to turn back to the comments on verse 2 and compare again the parallel between Isaiah 7:1-25 : l-9 and the forty-two months of Revelation for an example of exact mathematical application.

It designated the period of time for the Gentiles to tread Jerusalem, the holy city, under foot, which was accomplished and fulfilled in the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans. It is also the appointed time for the two witnesses "clothed in sackcloth" to prophesy, in the appropriate garb of the prophets during the time of these woes. That is what the angel told John these representative witnesses should do, and it agrees with what the Lord also said should be done in the parallel passages previously cited in Matthew 24:14; Mark 13:10; Luke 21:12-15-24. It is evident that the period of the treading down of Jerusalem was the time of the testimony of the witnesses also.

 2017/6/25 21:40Profile





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