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Discussion Forum : Devotional Thoughts : Hell and Everlasting Punishment, Part 1: Abiding Wrath

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taco
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re:

Todd, we had a bit of a discussion on this before [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=5228&forum=36&start=70&viewmode=flat&order=1]here[/url]

Louis Abbott qrote an interesting book on the words Aion and aionis avilable for free [url=http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/]here[/url]

 2005/7/22 14:37Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
But my question is, for how long do they stay in the Lake of Fire? Perhaps only for a season? I mean, at least Rev. 20:10 gives a somewhat specific time frame for those 3 beings. It says they will be tormented day and night "unto the ages" (I think that's a good literal translation). But in the case of verses 14-15, it doesn't even say this.



Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever

I dont know what translation you are using but the KJV says forever. I would assume that is a more correct translation.

The Analytical-Literal Translation says this.

And the Devil, the one leading them astray [fig., deceiving them], was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur [or, brimstone], where the beast and the false prophet [are], and they will be tormented day and night into the ages of the ages [fig., forever and ever].

But then again I don't know much about the ALT if its good. Some translations say ages of ages, some say forever and ever. I think I'll stick with the old KJV.


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Josh Parsley

 2005/7/22 14:58Profile
todd
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Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Taco!

Wow. This text by G. Campbell Morgan was so confirming for me...

"Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word "eternity." We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our "eternal," which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end. The strongest Scripture word used with reference to the existence of God, is–"unto the ages of the ages," which does not literally mean eternally. Let us remember however that the self-same word, which is thus used in connection with the existence of God, is also applied to the loss of the human soul. Men have divided the Church, separated from each other, and persecuted one another, upon a thought conveyed by an English word which has no equivalent in the Bible."

I found that in the link you gave to an earlier discussion on this topic on the site. Can you give referrence to the source of this quotation? I must know the reference before I can fully accept it as G.C. Morgan, who just happens to be one of my favorite old time expositors.

 2005/7/22 14:59Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Hmm well... I don't know where or if the bible goes into what happens to new born babies when they die. I do know this that the souls that sins it will die. Of course the scriptures I posted were to ones old enought that they were accountable. I don't have scripture to back it up... just a feeling for the character of God but.. I don't believe babies go to Hell. I assume I would beleive the "age of accountablity" thought on it. That is to say when they get to an age that they are accountable they need to repent and be born again. I think it is interesting that at the age of 12 Jewish boys were "a son of the commandment" and were obliged to the duties of an adult.


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Josh Parsley

 2005/7/22 15:09Profile
todd
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Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

PreachParsley,

Have you looked through this thread carefully? I feel like we have gone over this, but let me try and clarify for you.

Rev. 20:10 speaks [i]exclusively[/i] of 3 specific beings: the devil, the beast, and the false prophet. My question which you responded to with that verse was concerning all those who are not written in the Book of Life.

I also hope you will look deeper into the translations of "Aion" and "Aionios." Could the KJV have translated these words badly or even incorrectly? Could most modern translations have made the same mistake?

 2005/7/22 15:09Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

So would you also group these with the other 3?

So now we have 4? the devil, the beast, false prophet and their followers?

I'm not a learned scholar by any means. I do not ever want to come off arrogant in any of these discussions. If I am wrong correct me. I just want the truth..


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Josh Parsley

 2005/7/22 15:34Profile
taco
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re:

Todd, I am quoting from
G. Campbell Morgan, GOD’S METHODS WITH MAN, p.185

 2005/7/22 15:50Profile
todd
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Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

PP,

Quote:
"I'm not a learned scholar by any means. I do not ever want to come off arrogant in any of these discussions. If I am wrong correct me. I just want the truth.."

I am right in the same camp with you then.

Please, do you feel like you've gone through this thread carefully? You're responses seem to indicate that you have not. Once you answer this question for me, if you still have the same questions, I will attempt to help clarify further.

 2005/7/22 15:55Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Taco,

Thanks so much. I plan on purchasing the book soon. I see there's a fairly new edition available on amazon. This is very helpful to me.

 2005/7/22 15:56Profile
taco
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re:

Quote:

PreachParsly wrote:
Hmm well... I don't know where or if the bible goes into what happens to new born babies when they die. I do know this that the souls that sins it will die. Of course the scriptures I posted were to ones old enought that they were accountable. I don't have scripture to back it up... just a feeling for the character of God but.. I don't believe babies go to Hell. I assume I would beleive the "age of accountablity" thought on it. That is to say when they get to an age that they are accountable they need to repent and be born again. I think it is interesting that at the age of 12 Jewish boys were "a son of the commandment" and were obliged to the duties of an adult.



The point I am trying to make is that you believe that muslims must be going to hell because they are not born again. The quote above shows me that you allow at least one exception to the rule "you must be born again". Above all you base this on the character of God. Well done, I commend you for it.

Now do the same for the man in afar off land whose neighbours worship idols but whose heart tells him that there is a true God out there somwhere. A muslim comes by and shares with him of the God who created the earth and who asks for his worship and obedience. He responds and becomes a muslim. Will you consign him to an everlasting hell because he never heard the gospel? Surely your knowledge of the character of God will also forbid this.

 2005/7/22 15:56Profile





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