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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Distractions and Worship of Theology

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Joined: 2012/6/10
Posts: 225
United States


Brother, let me ask you a question that may help clear up the confusion between us. I don't mean this to be derogatory or to start an argument only to help you understand my point. You say from that verse you read and understand the atonement. Very well. Did you experience it from reading that verse as well?


 2017/4/3 21:38Profile


I haven't read all the posts in depth but I'm grieved about the discussions in some threads. To me it looks more like some "personality clashes " rather then Christ centered, God honoring studies.
May I briefly share some thoughts and Scriptures, will try and keep it short.

1 Corinthians 3v5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? They are servants through whom you believed, as the Lord has assigned to each his role. 6I planted the seed and Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.…

We keep a record of preachers and their "doctrines" their degrees, their achievements etc. Example: Spurgen had "this theology", or George Mueller was a "something-ist", etc. But I don't believe the Lord keeps such a record in the Book of Life!
I don't think George Mueller should be remembered for his "theology" rather for his faith and what God could do through him !

Genesis 15:6 And Abram believed the LORD, and the LORD counted him as righteous because of his faith.

Hebrews 11 "By faith..."

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

"Trust and obey, for there’s no other way
To be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey..."

 2017/4/4 0:20

Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2289

 Re: Thank you markuskiwi

I receive your admonition.

I just don't believe that ministers and servants of the Lord who may hold degrees have necessarily done a disservice to themselves by studying the word in a formal setting. Nor do I belive not having done so disqualifies someone from effective service. God can and does use both.

I also don't believe that the meaning of the atonement cannot be found in the pages of the Bible or that the Bible does not openly speak of it. I admit that it bothers mde to hear things like that and a certain amount of objectivity may have been lost.

Servants of the Lord will be remembered more for their faith more than their theology but their theology can sure be interesting and edifying.

You mentioned Christ centered God honoring studies. I can receive that.

"Now the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart, a good conscience and sincere faith." (I Timothy 1:5)

Now that is good doctrine.

Thank you.

David Winter

 2017/4/4 4:22Profile

Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2289


/Brother, let me ask you a question that may help clear up the confusion between us. I don't mean this to be derogatory or to start an argument only to help you understand my point. You say from that verse you read and understand the atonement. Very well. Did you experience it from reading that verse as well?/

I meant that verse and others like it that pertain to the atonement is not hidden from believers or even non believers for that matter. The Bible speaks openly and plainly about the atonement and in many places. That which once was hidden has now been openly revealed.

I don't know whjat the "it" is that I mjay or may not have experienced by reading that verse but it's probably best for me to just let things go at this point. I simply don't agree that the meaning of the atonement cannot be found in the Bible. It's pretty carefully dissected and broken down for us in the pages of the Bible especially the New Testament. There's no worship of the word involved in believing that. Christ Himself speaks to us through His written word.

The Bible is profitable for rebuke, instruction and doctrine. If a person perhaps does a word or passage study on a particular biblical subject and then tries to organize his findings a bit isn't doing a thing wrong in my opinion. Pity a church without any foundational doctrine to help guide it.

That the meaning of the atonement cannot be found in the pages of the Bible because the Bible wasn't written for that is something I can never agree to. It doesn't matter if you then say of you ask God for wisdom He will show you what is hidden. One thing for sure that is not hidden in the Bible is the meaning of the atonement. Christ Himself would direct you to His written word even as He is the living word. I consider the words of the Bible to be living words. There is nothing spooky or hyper spiritual about that.

I think I'll leave it at that for now and won't be carrying on any further. I would urge you to get with other members of the body of Christ whom you trust and respect and perhaps submit or present some fo your views to them. Input from the rest of the body never hurts.

Thank you and blessings.

David Winter

 2017/4/4 4:48Profile


...Dr. A. B. Simpson has this illustration, or illustrates this thing in this way. He says that on one occasion he saw the Constitution of the United States written, and it was written on a parchment. He was near to it, and could read all the details of the Constitution of the United States. But as he stood back from that parchment, some yards off, all he could see was the head of George Washington there on the parchment. Then he drew near again and saw the Constitution was so written in light and shadow as to take the shape of the head of George Washington. That is it. God has written the revelation of Himself, but it is in the Person of His Son, the Headship of the Lord Jesus, and you cannot have the constitution of heaven, except in the Person, and the constitution of heaven is the Person in the shape of God's Son...

It would seem based on the illustration above by A.B. simpson we are called into relationship with a person. The person is Jesus. Again, I think of the Christmas card that soon.,

...The word did not become a philosophy or theology or a concept ( and I might add a book) to be discussed, debated or pondered. But the Word became a Person to be followed, loved and enjoyed...

We read in Genesis 5:23-24,

...Enoch lived soxty-five years and became the father of Methuselah. Then Enoch walked with God three hundred years after he became the father of Methuselah and he had other sons and daughters. So all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty-five years, not walked with God and he was not for God took him...

The book of Hebrews commenting on the above passage says,

... By faith, Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death, and he was not found because God took him up for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up for he was pleasing to God...

Was Enoch walking with a theological construct or was Enoch walking with a person? We can only presuppose that Enoch was walking with Jesus in His preincarnate state. Mind you. There were no Bibles in Enoch's day. We can only presuppose that he had an experience with the Lord Jesus Christ. Or perhaps it was revelations of God in dreams and visions. But the text does tell us he walked with God. And this was not in theological concepts or abstracts. But presumably in a relationship with the living Christ, the living Word of God.

In an earlier post, I mentioned that. Peter and John had been with Jesus. The theological leaders of their day saw that the early apostles had walked in relationship to the Son of God. And that Jesus was living in their hearts by the Holy Spirit. Also, they were moving in the power of the Holy Spirit. Again, no theology could produce the apostolic power of the Holy Ghost. Only through being in a relationship with Jesus, could they know the true power of God working in their hearts.

God has called us into a personal relationship with a Person. This person is the Truth. And his name is Jesus.

Bro Blaine

 2017/4/4 9:32

Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2289


So bear,

If one for instance is curious say about sanctification (or any biblical subject) and they do a study of it in the Bible and make an attempt to organize their findings a bit and then maybe present them to others for their mututal edification is that wrong? Should pastors not study a few books outside of the Bible to see what others have to say about a subject they are considering speaking on? There weren't Bibles in Enoch's day but there is one today and it is a fairly large corpus that even the early church didn't have.

Why do you act like saying we are called to a relationship with the person of Christ and not theology or books is something people don't understand? Give us a break bro. That's not news or a revelation to anyone even the people who have written books.

Try the end results of the charismatic movement for a movement that used to express the ill conceived mantra that we don't need doctrine or theology we just need Jesus. What caused it to so far off the rails and end up an embarrasment to the entire body of Christ?

Do you plan on reading any books from here on out? Has your disdain for theology ended up with you walking in the power of God like Peter and Paul and the early church? If these fancy theologians are full of knowledge but minus the power of God are you walking in this power? Come on bro. I would urge you to quit hammering good people.

Blessings to you and I appreciate your concern for the persecuted church.


David Winter

 2017/4/4 10:20Profile

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