| Re: Back yo OP |
PP. My apologies. Did not mean to detract thread.
So was it not Michael Sattler, one of the early Anabaptist leaders who said that every brother and sister must become their own priest? Meaning? That they should seek out truth from the Word of God by dependence upon the Spirit. Presumably not by an ordained clergyman standing in front of them.
But did things really change at the reformation? The Catholics were under the authority of the priests who were to expound the scriptures in Latin. The Protestants found themselves being under. the pastor who was to break open the word of God. So really, where did things change?
Luther spoke of the priesthood of all believers. But the priesthood of all believers as the Protestant pastor broke open the word of God. So whether it was in the Catholic or the Protestant system? There was a mediator who stood between the congregation and God. It was either the Cstholic priest or the Protestant pastor.
Today, we would say pastor laity. Or pastor congregation. I would say very little if anything has changed since the reformation. We speak of one having the word of God and being able to read it on their own. Yet even today, we depend on seminarians. To expound the word to us. One wonders. Where is the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit? Rather, where is the dependence upon the Holy Spirit to give us insight from his word?
| 2017/3/18 9:41|
| Re: My Visit to Reformed Seminary |
Several years ago I visited a brother in Jackson, Mississippi. He was a student at Reformed Theological Seminary. He took me on a tour of the seminary. As we went into the chapel there before me was this tall, 9 foot podium that towered above the chapel. One had to mount the podium by a flight of stairs on each side of it. The brother explained to me. That the podium symbolized the exalted view of the word of God. And that the congregation was to give attention to the pastor who broke open the word of God.
So really, I ask my question again. Have things really changed since the Reformation? We may have the Bible in English. But we still depend upon a seminary trained clergyman to stand in front of us to "break open" the word of God. Thus inferring that we are still ignorant and cannot read the word of God for ourselves. Thus inferring we cannot depend upon the Holy Spirit to give us illumination and insight from the word. But we need the trained theologian or seminarian to expound the word to us. To interpret the word for us.
I submit. This is not new covenant. Christianity. Much like the old covenant. This is not the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit.
| 2017/3/18 9:51|
| Re: |
'SEEK ye FIRST the kingdom of God,and His righteousness'
As we read,..seeking / welcoming / desiring,..The Spirit of The Living God
to be right there teaching us,..( Diciples ) Right there,is the place of repentance, ( a willingness of turning from our will unto what He will reveal unto us of His will.
Then,as Mary sat at Jesus' feet and learned (a Disciple of Jesus) of Him, we will know the doctrine,if it be of Him,..and as Jesus said about Mary,.. she chose the better thing, and NO man could take it away from her,..she would not be tossed to and fro.
To me,..His Words are Spirit,.. as I read them or as He speaks The Word to me. (Life giving Word)
We are standing on Holy ground, if The Spirit of The Living God is there with us as we read His Word.( if we are desiring change as we read )Take our old dirty shoes off,..the shoes that we have been walking every other place in.
He wants to wash our feet,...cleanse our walk,by the washing of the water by The Word, as He gives that Word to us.
There, is where we find the true 'unity' ,that Jesus talks about,is found.
( the type of 'unity' that Jesus had with The Father )
In much love,as we grow in Him,Who is our head,
| 2017/3/18 10:21||Profile|
| Re: |
RE : /// He was the founder of the Jesuits. Many claim him to be evil or wrong but it was a godly movement to start with, and turned bad later on.///
Greg, this is what that foundation of the movement that you call "godly" was :
Ignatius, along with the help of his personal secretary Juan Alfonso de Polanco (es) wrote the Jesuit Constitutions, adopted in 1554, which created a monarchical organization for the order, and stressed absolute self-denial and obedience to the Pope and to superiors in the catholic hierarchy, using the motto perinde ac cadaver - "as if a dead body", i.e. that the good Jesuit should be as well-disciplined as a corpse. But his main principle became the Jesuit motto: Ad maiorem Dei gloriam ("for the greater glory of God").
| 2017/3/18 13:15||Profile|
| Re: |
The whole stream of Church history abundantly confirms the truth of the
Apostle's position. Who has not heard of the hermits and ascetics of the
early centuries? Who has not heard of the monks and nuns and recluses of
the Roman Catholic Church in the middle ages? Who has not heard of the
burning zeal, the devoted self-denial of Romanists like Xavier, and
Ignatius Loyola? The earnestness, the fervor, the self-sacrifice of all
these classes, are matters beyond dispute. But none who read carefully
and intelligently the records of their lives, yes, some of the best of
them, can fail to see that they had no solid peace or inward rest of
soul. Their very feverish restlessness is enough to show that their
conscience; were not at ease. None can fail to see that, with all their
furious zeal and self-denial, they never did much good to the world.
They gathered round themselves admiring partisans. They left a high
reputation for self-denial and sincerity. They made men wonder at them
while they lived, and sometimes canonize them when they died. But they
did nothing to convert souls. And what is the reason of this? They
attached an overweening importance to man-made ritual and ceremonial, and
made less than they ought to have done of the Gospel of the grace of God.
Their principle was to make much of "ceremony," and little of "grace."
Hence they verified the words of Paul, "Ceremonial foods are of no value
to those who eat them."
| 2017/3/18 16:09||Profile|
| Re: |
___The story is told of an Irishman who all of his life had been, as so many of his nation are, a member of the Roman Catholic church but some one had given him a New Testament and through reading it he had been brought to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. He had learned that a man may have eternal life in this world and know it, that he may have all his sins forgiven and be certain of it, that he need not go to any human intermediary but may go direct to the blessed Lord Himself to confess his sins and obtain forgiveness___
Then brother do you believe that one needs a priest or a pastor to break open said word. Seems that Patrick got his insights through a revelation of the Holy Spirit. So can a believer take, say a New Testament and go before the Holy Spirit and get insight from God's word without the need of an intermediary to break open, the said word?
By the way bro. I am asking this from your OP.
| 2017/3/18 17:22|
| Re: |
RE /// Then brother do you believe that one needs a priest or a pastor to break open said word. Seems that Patrick got his insights through a revelation of the Holy Spirit. So can a believer take, say a New Testament and go before the Holy Spirit and get insight from God's word without the need of an intermediary to break open, the said word?///
I believe that certain Bible teachers such as Spurgeon and others can be a great help in breaking open the text.
But I also believe that we need to be careful in relying to much on other men's interpretations.
We need to study the Scriptures for ourselves.
This is from the same artical by Ironside as was the OP :
How can any one say that Christians are not capable of reading the Word of God and getting the mind of the Lord when the Holy Spirit has been sent from heaven for the express purpose of opening the truth to those who honestly seek that truth and are prepared to walk according to it?
Our blessed Lord said of the Holy Spirit, “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you” (John 14:26). Imagine a man cast out on a desert island with nothing but a copy of the Bible, no teacher, no clergy man, no priest, no church, no other books of any kind to instruct him. Do you mean to say that that man is left without the possibility of acquiring sufficient truth for the saving of his soul because he is beyond the reach of the visible church? Surely not. Wherever a man honestly seeks to know the mind of God, the Holy Spirit is there to reveal the truth to him.
They tell us that we must not use private judgment but must accept the judgment of the council and the church. But how are we going to decide to accept that? Must I not use my private judgment and decide that I will forego the reasonings of my own intellect and let the councils tell me what to believe? Is that not private judgment, after all? I remember reading Cardinal Newman’s Apologia Pro Vita Sua years ago. He tells how up to the day that he decided to submit himself to the church of Rome and accept the dictum of that church as his guide, he had very grave doubts as to many of the so called Catholic doctrines such as the position given to the pope, the place given to the blessed virgin Mary, the doctrine of purgatory, the intercession of saints and so on, but he said, “When I decided to submit my judgment to the church, all these things were settled for me.” But do you not see, he had to make the decision himself. Was not that private judgment? I have investigated these things. I have read much Roman Catholic theology, I have examined a great many volumes put out by Catholic publishers and after having compared them with the Word of God, my private judgment tells me that I dare not trust the salvation of my soul to the decision of popes or councils if they go contrary to the Book. I am resting upon what this Book reveals as to God’s way of salvation and if it tells me that Peter is the rock on which the Church is built and that there is no salvation except for those who are in the church founded by Peter, I want to know it, but I must find out from the Book.
| 2017/3/20 0:51||Profile|
| Re: |
"And how can we not be in this circumstance of never knowing the truth and always believing a new teaching by some brother or sister? it is by the instruction of God gifted leaders in the body of Christ, a few verses earlier in Ephesians 4:11 gives us that answer.
God never wanted us to try and re-figure out all of Christianity every generation from the Bible alone by ourselves. We have believers who have passed on the truth and traditions of the Apostles that we can learn from."
I think what we are missing is the context of the Body as a whole, with all the gifts and offices that we read about in Scripture. Some are teachers, but others have the gift of discernment and things balance each other out. Everyone in the Body has the responsibility to exhort and test and rebuke others if need be. Even the teacher can and should be rebuked.
The problem is when we have this distinction between clergy and laity where the balancing act is not possible and the so-called teachers lord over a congregation and suppress the outworking of the Spirit through the Body. We have seen this historically with, among others, the Catholic Church. But an individualistic, lone-ranger Christianity is not desirable either. Patrick is doing fine reading his New Testament, but if he is not at some point placed in the larger context of the true Body, I doubt that he could have the environment to flourish spiritually (although the grace and mercy of God cover many things) and fulfill the purposes of God.
When it comes to being taught by teachers established in the Body of Christ, Greg is right, but the challenge is recognizing the true expressions of the Body from the false. The Jesuits, I would submit, are a false expression and I think proudpapa made a good case for that in one of the previous posts. Of course none of us come to faith or exist in a vacuum, but in our desire to trace the unbroken continuum of the faith through history, we shouldn't whitewash blatant heresy.
In regards to missionary work and the scriptures, it is a great provision of God that the church started in a Jewish context, namely because that is the context in which Scripture (OT) was given, which is why we could have Bereans. Then evangelists are sent out of such a Body and context to teach others. But even in the early days of the church, epistles were translated and the importance of the Word was recognized. Missionaries in newer times have often even created written languages for certain peoples and tribes, because the written Word is such an enormous blessing. That such communities have to, in their early stages, rely on the grace of God and the guidance of the Spirit does not detract from that in the least. And anyways, thinking that we can somehow surmise truth and doctrine by the Word independent of the Spirit is erroneous, as it is the Spirit that reveals truth through the Word. The two work in agreement; it's not one or the other.
Sorry for the rambling post.
Edit: But it does all come down to the Scriptures, because we can only know what the true Body of Christ looks like through the Bible, and then I believe things fall into place. In reality, the process is a lot messier (I think we all know this), but it comes down to trusting that the Lord will teach us and guide us in truth.
| 2017/3/20 6:42||Profile|
| Re: The story is told of an Irishman..........|
I am glad that I, as Patrick, can read the Bible on my own and allow the Holy Spirit to reveal to me the true apostolic faith as revealed in the Word. When true revival takes place, God reveals to some the paralyzing denominational/traditional baggage that the Church has acquired so that they can pray fervently for His Body to be restored. I love to read of what God has done in the past in "dead" churches when a few people prayed in response to a burden God Himself laid upon their hearts.
When leaders no longer preach in the power of the Holy Ghost but rather present to their people dry theology or empty tradition God has other ways to reveal Himself to seeking souls who desire true life as found in Christ. The unadulterated Scripture is the undying witness of ancient truth which never changes.
Right now I am privileged to see God working in the lives of young people to bring them to a saving, life transforming relationship with Jesus. His workings are taking place in ways that defy our imagination - consequently only He gets the glory! He has blessed my wife and myself with the joy of being as spiritual "parents" to some of these dear ones. For years I have been in prayer never dreaming of how God would work His will - only seeing a great need before me. Not only are new people coming to faith - young people within the church are hungering for true life and are very grateful to find an older person who can understand them and mentor them. All this is happening in relative obscurity and the Holy Spirit is making the contacts. When the ideal pattern for church life has been marred God is not at loss to display His glory and feed His dear lambs in His own way.
| 2017/3/20 14:27||Profile|
| Re: |
Patrick is doing fine reading his New Testament, but if he is not at some point placed in the larger context of the true Body, I doubt that he could have the environment to flourish spiritually (although the grace and mercy of God cover many things) and fulfill the purposes of God.
When I received the baptism of Holy Spirit, I started receiving revelation from Bible. I call it revelation because my clever mind cannot understand those things. It has to be revealed by God not by clever mind. Now each week the word that the Lord spoke to me, will be exactly in line with the word that the Lord will speak to me through the Church sermon on the coming Sunday. So when the elder brothers call to share, I will be able to readily bless the Church. I could not believe how each and every week the story was exactly same! It was a sign that the Lord gave about my future ministry in his Church.
Knowing the Lord's burden for a local Church is very important. Such a word can come only in a local Church out of the Lord's burden. Every time I fellowship in my locality, I always seek the fresh word from God. Can the Lord not speak the same word directly to me? Yes he can. There are certain things that the Lord will only address in the Local Church, so that we will be perfected in unity (John 17:23).
Many here in SI who do not attend any Church, still hear Godly sermons from SI. So deep inside them they know that they cannot live by their personal Bible reading alone. So they try to satisfy that thirst using recorded sermons. If they truly believe that Bible is good enough, then why do we need SI and all those recorded sermons? The right way to satisfy that thirst is through a local Church.
| 2017/3/20 15:57||Profile|