You are right Marvin. I don't mind debating but in the past- here at least- the debates have not really led anywhere. In other words, no one ever changes their mind.

That being said, I believe discussions can be civil.

Personally, my problem with certain reformed doctrine is what I perceive to be extreme slander on God's character. I know that a reformed person sees those same doctrines and ideas and don't have a problem with it at all- they just say God is God and He can do what He wants.

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Todd

Thanks, Todd I appreciate the honesty and civility to allow me a fair hearing even when you heartily disagree. That my brother is spiritual fruit, I get to be partaker of it.

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Marvin

"...the debates have not really led anywhere. In other words, no one ever changes their mind."

There once was a man named Krispy. When he joined the forum he had a very strong arm. He threw many a fast ball, and not a few curves. His arm became weak over the years. Now everyone who knows him calls him Cal.

Some of the forumites I'm sure remember him. And one of the moderators changed his name to Cal as well, after his arm got weak over the years. And there are others too. So remember...

Be slow to speak, quick to listen, and slow to become angry.

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” John 12:32

Hey Marvin,

I appreciate your honesty and openness to discuss. However let me explain....

Although it is impossible that anyone of us can present views without some pre-suppositions based on what we have learnt and become convinced about, I still believe it is possible to look at the scriptures and particular subjects without having to see them only through the lens of any particular theological system (be that Reformed or any other). In fact if we do not attempt to do this then we will never be open to receive any particular truth the Holy Spirit is wanting to show us.

I honestly do make a conscious effort to look at all scripture on its own merit and I will not allow myself to be constrained by any pre-conceived theological system. That is not to say I don't have pre-conceived doctrinal positions, we mostly all do, but I mean allegiance to a system such as Cal or Arm. That is why I can agree with some Reformed doctrines, but not others. likewise with most other denominational systems. Now that does tend to make one a bit of an outsider in most churches, who like to have all their doctrinal positions engraved in stone! Men are creatures that seek acceptance and ease, therefore it is a tendency to fall into line with one or other 'camp' so now 'we know where we stand'. I refuse to compromise my integrity and 'fall in line' with any system or denomination that is man made....and you can be sure all these 'isms are man made.

I find it a bit sad to read Savannah claim the 'scalps' of those who have been 'converted' to Calvinism. Not because it is Calvinism, the same would apply to any other 'ism', but because is just plain sectarianism.

In summery, can you not just put off your Reformed hat and accept that the scripture clearly do command men to seek God and they also tell us God seeks us. Why insist it is only the latter when the evidence is there to read in scripture.

My original disagreement with you was your statement that "God only seeks those who have no interest in Him". That is clearly not true based on many scriptural examples and also not true in experience on many folk. I would not disagree that God does also seek people who are totally uninterested in Him, but your 'only' these is the problem and can only be based on your reformed thinking and not honest reading of the scriptures.

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Dave

I believe I would like to put forth somewhat of a fresh perspective on this that I have not seen in this thread yet.

Somewhere around 6000 years ago God created a planet. He provide for life with a sun and moon exactly positioned. He created a universe around this planet that is so vast that we can only see the minutest part of only one of its millions of galaxies with our naked eye on a good night. He created amazing life on this planet. And He did it all just so man, with whom he desired relationship, could dwell here and marvel at his creator.

Then, when man sinned, God did not pull the plug. In fact, He foresaw the sin, created the man anyway, and provided the price of reconciliation through the person of His one and only Son before the creation was even finished.

I am not sure that I even need to say more to make the point that I am trying to make. I am so amazed that almighty God longs so much to have intimacy with me that He did all of this. He must love me, desire me, and long after me in a way that I cannot even comprehend to have done all of this...just for me.

I think He has been seeking us our since the very beginning. All He desires is that we reciprocate and take advantage of the reconciliation and relationship that has been offered from the very foundation of the world.

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Travis

Well said brother T:)

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Fletcher