SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : Washington Supreme Court Punishes Barronelle Stutzman. What Now?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 Next Page )
PosterThread
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1651
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

Just skimmed about two-thirds of the opinion. Much is based on arguments over interpretaion of state statutory law and not the US Constitution. Just be aware that state human rights laws are really human wrongs laws.

Here is where Stutzmann's case stands on shaky ground. She admitted that her preparation of floral arrangements for atheist and Islamic weddings did not impact her beliefs and that she could and would do it. This goes to my original point: we are staking out our defense incorrectly. Not that we would win anyway --- I doubt we would. But, make the government say it. Make the government say that it doesn't matter who God is, that it only matters who the laws are written to favor and it only matters who the government is. Make them use their sovereignty as their exclamation that God is not. Because as it is, we are feeding ourselves to them and we are fools. We are being beaten down and not even saying AT ALL in this context who God is.

It matters more to the church's ability to even comprehend, let alone articulate, WHY homosexuality and same sex marriage are wrong. Barronelle Stutzmann doesn't truly understand why she is opposed to it. She just feels it would violate her conscience. Conscience is the essence of the First Amendment's freedom of religion clause. I don't care about mere conscience here. This concerns the true proclamation of who God is, who Jesus is, the nature of God, and His sovereign power over our own power to say who WE are. The church is selling out on this point because it genuinely thinks the Constitution values the gospel of Christ AS the gospel of Christ. It doesn't. We keep fighting the fight with our shoes nailed to the First Amendment jurisprudence and no one is gaining clearer understanding of who God is. We are being selfish, even in this.


_________________
Tim

 2017/2/17 20:08Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4529


 Re:

Hi proudpapa,

I agree with what you're saying. I would suspect that it is common sense, but it doesn't seem that it is.

I would never expect a Jewish bakery to bake a cake celebrating a vile neo-Nazi club or an African American-owned restaurant to be forced to cater lunch at a KKK rally. This is an unthinkable violation of a person's conscience. It reeks of the same principle of asking a Muslim woman to remove her hijab for employment or a Jewish catering service to offer pork chops on their menu.

Like you said, musicians refused service for Trump's inauguration. The Huffington Post and other liberal websites frequently remove comments that they deem "offensive" -- even if they are simply religious in nature (and still on-topic). Many websites will ban members on the basis of their religious beliefs. I would argue that it is within their right to do so.

How is that any different than a florist refusing to participate in celebrating a homosexual "marriage" or celebrating an abortion? It is the consumer assaulting the business owner for his or her faith.

In Reynolds v. United States, the court stated that they feared a broad interpretation of religious exercise that could excuse any type of behavior with the excuse that it was the exercise of religion. By siding with the State of Washington, an even wider net can be cast.

Any person can insinuate that any denial of service is a violation of "equal protection." If a for-profit website like the Huffington Post bans a user, then they risk being sued for targeting that person for political reasons. Even a Christian bookstore, school or daycare could be sued for rejecting a homosexual or transgender person for a position of employment.

I just hope that the Supreme Court (with its new justice confirmed) will defend the rights of individuals -- even sole proprietors -- to adhere to the exercise of their faith when it isn't truly harmful in nature. If it is understood from the get go, then it would be difficult to sue for "harm" when a person states that they cannot violate their faith in a certain aspect.


_________________
Christopher

 2017/2/17 20:18Profile









 Re:

Brethren respectfully I think some of you are missing the point here. The point being that persecution has come to the shores of America. It should come as no surprise that this court has ruled the way it did against this Christian business. We are living in an environment that is hostile to the things of Jesus.

The question we need to ask ourselves is what is God saying to us. How are we to respond to the increasing hostility that will surely come up on Christians in the days ahead.

He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit is saying to the American Evangelical Church.

Bro Blaine

 2017/2/17 21:35
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Tim

You make good points. Yes I can see that this is the real issue. The kingdoms of the is earth are NOT YET the kigdoms of our God and His Christ!

Blaine, of course you are correct in saying this.


_________________
Dave

 2017/2/18 3:24Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7497
Mississippi

 Re:

All legal complexities aside what if I just plain do not want to make this cake/arrange these flowers for this customer? Am I required to have a reason other then I just plain do not want to? Would I not be allowed to refuse providing this service because I just do not want to?

Sandra


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2017/2/22 19:00Profile
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1651
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

Sandra, under Washington state law, if your plain not wanting to is motivated by your desire not to serve homosexuals, then you would be in violation of the law to refuse service.

Question is whether your not wanting to is worth the cost.

Your call.


_________________
Tim

 2017/2/22 19:57Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7497
Mississippi

 Re:

Tim, is a merchant required to reveal why he does not want to service this customer? If you live in the south you know people are liable to lie if they do not want to do something or to get their way. And they get by with it. I would not advocate lying but it seems to me a person could refuse without giving a reason. In life I have learned that if I say "no" to something I am not required to explain it.

Reckon I am a bit dense....you do not have to say "amen!"

Sandra


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2017/2/22 23:05Profile
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1651
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

Sandra,

Say you are a Washington florist who does wedding florals.. A homosexual couple wants to order a flower arrangement for their wedding. You know they are, of course, homosexual. You say, "No, thanks." They say, "Don't you sell florals for weddings?" You say, "Yes." They say, "But you won't sell to us?" You say, "No." They say, "If we were a man and woman, you would sell to us, right?"

You say....

Can't say no, because you do.
Can say nothing, or "leave my shop", but that looks, and IS, inculpatory silence and dodging the question.
Can say "It violates my conscience as a Christian." To which they would say, "State law says your conscience takes a back seat to our right to do business in this state. See you in court."

You get sued. You get all sorts of discovery demands from teir lawyers. You are repeatedly asked in 50 different ways about dozens of things that reveal your motivation: You just flatly don't want to do it because they are homosexual. You will be asked point blank also about your motivations, your views on other marriages that do not meet your personal understanding of biblical marriage, how many times you have refused service to those customers on that basis and how many times you didn't refuse service. You didn't bother keeping up with it, probably. And that's okay because who really does in a thriving flower shop and your business does not discriminate, right? Except, when the homosexuals walk in and ask for flowers for their wedding---then suddenly you start keeping score.

See?


_________________
Tim

 2017/2/23 6:23Profile
drifter
Member



Joined: 2005/6/6
Posts: 696
Campbell River, B.C.

 Re:

I remember I was at work one day over a year ago and someone jokingly called me gay (you have to understand I work with some pretty rough people; and that wasn't the exact word he used), so I explained to him that homosexuality is a sin according to God's Word. Another of my co workers overheard what I said and tried to get me fired. The HR guy gave me a lecture that "homosexuality is a protected human right in Canada" etc. I explained that I understand Canadian law but those are my convictions and I'm not changing them. It wouldn't be the first time someone tried to fire me for being a christian. Another time my boss and his brother told me "we don't want to hear you talk about Jesus anymore" and I looked both of them in the eye and said "Jesus loves you, I love you, and I won't shut up; go ahead and fire me." They didn't.
Having said all that, I wouldn't want to run a business where you can get sued for your convictions.


_________________
Nigel Holland

 2017/2/23 6:56Profile









 Re:

But saints is this not where we are headed. Christians who own businesses that cater to weddings and provide other such services are only the tip of the iceberg. Right now such businesses that stand on biblical principle by refusing to provide such services to same-sex weddings because it violates their conscience are going against the law. And because they choose to do so in following Christ they pay the price.

But do you not see this is only the beginning. What happens when the US government starts banning the Bible as a hate book. In Canada it is already considered a hate book. What happens when the US government says that to own such a Bible is against the law. Or what happens when the US government says that we can no longer preach about Jesus Christ in the public venue.

The election of Donald Trump may be a reprieve of some sort. But this will not stop Satan from bringing darkness upon this nation. If anything persecution may increase under Trump.

Brethren we must fix in our mind that persecution is coming. Indeed it is already here. And as much as I've enjoyed the God is Not Dead movies. Not every battle that Anerican believers engage in through the university or court system will result in the Goodnews Boys singing a victorious song for Jesus.

This is certainly not happening with believers in Eritres or N. Korea or Samomia. Before this day ends it is estimated that 300 to 400 dear saints will have been martyred for the Lord Jesus Christ and some part of the world. Yet the Book of Revelations say that these believers are victorious in that they overcome the evil one by their martyrdom and their testimony for Jesus. But we American believers do not see the victory of Christ that way.

We in America are living in la-la land or in a bubble. We believe that we are immune from persecution because somehow we are special in God's eyes. But can anyone in this forum tell me from the scriptures that American Believers are exempt from persecution.

Paul Washer used to be respected in this forum. This is a man who has spoken at Sermonindex conferences. Yet his message has been mocked by some even in this forum about upcoming persecution.

Brothers and sisters when the roundups start. When we are taking to the FEMA death camps. There will be those who will weep and wail and say why were we not warned. Why were we not told to prepare for upcoming persecution.

The thing is we have been warned. We have been warned by Jesus in the scriptures. We have been warned by men of God such as Paul Washer and David Wilkinson and Leonard and David Ravenhill. We will have no excuse to weep and wail. We have been warned. The question is are we listening???

Again these are simply my thoughts.

Bro Blaine

 2017/2/23 8:07





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy