Washington st. u.S. A.
by couch on 2005/6/13 14:53:27
"I've watched too many friends recently fall into the traps of postmodern and "new kind of christian" teaching that demotes the word of God and elevates human ability to "reason, adapt, and figure" for himself how to apply things how he wishes."
Amen thats why we are where we are, not listening to the word of God. "But from the tree...thou shalt not eat" first listening to the devil twist God's words around. and Adam standing by letting the salesman sell a bill of goods to the woman of his castle, and not standing up for what God had given him.
| 2005/6/20 22:59||Profile|
I think you are misunderstanding what I wrote about Paul. I have no doubt that he was transformed through the forgiveness of Christ. Its just that I believe that, because of his past, he had an agenda and a bias that went beyond that of Christ.
| 2005/6/21 12:16|
Its just that I believe that, because of his past, he had an agenda and a bias that went beyond that of Christ.
OK, so now we have Peter's opinion and yours. Guess which one I'm going to go with?
| 2005/6/21 18:11||Profile|
| Re: interpreting|
Its just that I believe that, because of his past, he had an agenda
Have you ever noticed, so did God, here:
For I will shew him how [b]great things he [Paul] must suffer for my name's sake[/b].
and a bias that went beyond that of Christ.
Apart from your personal opinion, do you choose a few scriptures to back up what you mean in this last part of your statement?
| 2005/6/21 18:33|
I can understand how one can make a natural rational conclusion in Pauls writtings, however, his writtings are numerically perfect along with the OT and the odds of that are like 10 billion to 1? Diffinately divine in origin.
| 2005/6/21 22:21||Profile|
Here's a couple of examples:
Jesus of Nazareth strongly focused on women and the social status of women, but Paul was reactionary against Jesus' radicalism towards women. He demanded that women be silent in church and in matters of theology, thus re-establishing a gendered difference that Jesus had in part erased.
While Jesus of Nazareth has absolutely nothing to say about slaveryeven though it was a common practicePaul seems to approve of it. In fact, he demands that slaves obey their masters.
| 2005/6/22 15:58|
Washington st. u.S. A.
He came to set the captive free. Jesus was full of the Holy Spirit,Paul was filled with Christ.
scripture must be read with understanding.
Look for Christ you'll find him in the word, he is the word. Jesus had all the time in his ministry to put a woman in as disciple,but he did the will of the father. there are 12 tribes, Jacob had daughters yet it was the son's that were leaders. Jesus had many women followers yet he sent out 12 then 70 to witness to the world, they were men.
I can write all day about it, but untill the Holy Spirit opens one eyes to the word and it's knowledge of how it fit's together, I'm just writting words.
That is why we have so many churches. stand on the whole counsel of God.
Truth must not be based on what is happening in our cultural consensus, but on the word of the revealed mind of God the Father.
| 2005/6/22 16:24||Profile|
| Re: interpreting - re Bubba|
'Jesus of Nazareth strongly focused on women'
This is an overstatement. If you count references, you will find He is quoted as having said 'man' more often than 'woman' and I don't mean 51/49, and that's before counting all the times He referred to a man by name. Some women would call this [i]not[/i] equal enough.
'and the social status of women,'
Where is the social status of any woman to whom Jesus spoke or referred, mentioned by Jesus?
'but Paul was reactionary against Jesus' radicalism towards women.'
Again, this is hard to justify from an analysis of scripture's record of either Paul's or Jesus's dealings with women. But, there is a possibility that the reader who is not used to giving women a fair place in their thinking, will be struck by the equality shown to women in the Bible.
'He demanded that women be silent in church'
The gospel and Christianity brought a radical change to the social status of women within marriage and society. Now they were expected to hear and understand the gospel and listen to the teaching for themselves, or so it has been explained to me.
'and in matters of theology,'
But to ask questions at home and not to teach the men. That they received the gifts in the same way men did, may have been as radical as the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit, the same way the Jews did. This is where the status of slave and master, is also singled out for a mention, seeing that [i]in the Lord[/i] they were all equal with each other, despite outward divisions - such as nationality, gender or employment status.
'thus re-establishing a gendered difference that Jesus had in part erased'
Jesus had not 'in part erased' any gender difference. If you think He had, you are confusing equality of treatment by Him and opportunity to know Him, with a kind of modern 'unisex' thinking which has always been far from scripture and was [i]never[/i] undermined by Jesus.
'While Jesus of Nazareth has absolutely nothing to say about slaveryeven though it was a common practicePaul seems to approve of it. In fact, he demands that slaves obey their masters.'
Jesus had been sent with a new message about the nearness of the kingdom of heaven and the imminence of the kingdom of God, not to rehash the state of the nation in terms of the Law - and yet, in many ways He did just that.
He left the apostles to offer practical advice on how men and women might adjust their attitudes, to show forth His glory after they were born again and baptised in the Spirit.
There were many things Jesus did not comment on during His earthly ministry, but I believe He did mention slaves, (captives) here:
18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth.
The alternative to slavery was worse than slavery. If you read the reasons for and rights of slaves, including that of NOT LEAVING when they were FREE to do so, you will see Paul had to accept their existence, rather as we accept certain less than desirable financial arrangements on other matters, such as the use of the mortgage for the purchase of property.
There are other mentions of 'captive' in the New Testament too, the most notable being
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
This is a vital statement - fulfilment of prophecy attributed to Jesus - in which the kind of slavery which really matters - slavery to sin - has been addressed successfully through His death and resurrection. This remains the only type of slavery from which a person really needs to be set free, regardless of outward circumstances.
Do you ever read scripture with the attitude that here is something [i][b]good[/b][/i] to get your teeth into, and allow your spirit to be fed with the word of Life?
| 2005/6/22 18:05|