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It gets worse than that. Not just rejoicing but participation.

Many Christians share the belief that the Islamic shrines must be destroyed and that a Jewish Temple must and will be rebuilt - very soon.

However strange it may seem, influential Christian leaders are actively promoting and funding Jewish religious groups who want to destroy the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, the third most holy shrine within Islam. They want to replace it with a fully functioning Jewish Temple. They are doing so because they believe the Bible mandates it. Some Christians like pastor Clyde Lott, a Pentecostal rancher from Mississippi, are even trying to breed the perfect red heifer to assist in future Temple sacrifices. According to the Book of Numbers chapter 19, the ashes of a red heifer are needed to purify the priests and altar before sacrifices can be offered again.

The search for the red heifer has been described as a ‘four legged time bomb’. Other’s like John Hagee and Christians United for Israel are so upset by the presence of the Islamic Dome of the Rock dominating the view of Jerusalem, they have simply airbrushed it out of the picture. They used to have this on their logo and I'm trying to find a pic for you. Its made up of a photograph of the Wailing Wall. There’s a garden on top but no Dome of the Rock. No Al Aqsa. They have vanished.

This is a fantasy world in which there are no Palestinians... Currently, there are 4 million Palestinians in Israel! Even more frightening is the possibility that those who live with this illusion will take steps to make the fantasy come true – to destroy the two mosques which are absent in the CUHI photo.

What makes their plans even more bizarre is that they believe the Temple must be rebuilt just so that it can be desecrated one more time by the Antichrist before Jesus returns. They believe Daniel and Matthew predict the Temple will be desecrated before Jesus returns to rescue Israel and defeat her enemies in the ‘Battle for Jerusalem’.

This is becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy of John Hagee and those aligned with him to bring all of this about knowing it will lead to war. There are millions of Christians who are aligned with Hagee. This is not something that we can just brush under the carpet.

Now, just take a step back and remind yourself once again what it means to be a follower of Christ and then take in completely what I just said. If that is not enough for you, John Hagee believes that if you don't stand with him and CUFI, you are anti-semitic. Think about that! If you do not agree that the Christian church should be instrumental in helping Israel rebuild the Temple and restart Temple sacrifices, which means getting rid of the Muslim mosques, you are anti-semitic.

What business does a Christian have in supporting financially to rebuild a temple where sacrifices will be re-instituted, let alone start a war?

These days are full of deception. Be very careful my brothers and sisters.

 2016/9/4 9:03


FYI - Well just for clarity, that definitely is not me. Not a dispensationalist. Not a pre-tribber. Not rejoicing people attempt to worship God in a manner in which does not please Him and is not according to what He has already revealed in Jesus Christ. Just saying that IF there is any "excitement" or anticipation, or spirit of expectation in me, it is in the fact that I know our redemption drawers nigh, even at the door. And that's not a secret pre-trib rapture I'm referring to, but the visible 2nd coming of Jesus to the earth. The Day of the Lord. Hope I am being clear on that.
God Bless,

 2016/9/4 9:07


To be clear & frank, John Haggee & crew have some very strange doctrines. The "Dual Covenant Theology" (that Jews can still also go to heaven by following the Law apart from Christ to this day) is outright heresy. I'm not trying to be hard, but that's what it is by definition plain and simple. When I say I am for the salvation of Israel as defined by Romans 10-11, people often make a wrong assumption/association with the Haggee crowd. In the same way that when I say I am a Historic/Classic Premillinealist & people often keep lumping me in by terms, definitions or discussion with the Dispensationalists. It's inaccurate. Trust me, men like me, Art Katz & countless theologians & preachers down through the ages (Spurgeon, Bonar, Ryle, Baron, Bunyan, Saphir, etc.) are not & would not be cheering on lost Jews in their redirecting the type for worship outside of the fulfillment of those types (Christ). But it's like when I see earthquakes in diverse places, wars and rumors of wars all over the planet, etc. I am not a self-masochist who rejoices that these things are (or will be) happening in and of themselves, but that we can consider that we can begin to look up, for our redemption draweth nigh. And I don't wish the Palestinians Arabs to all be wiped out in the wars of men. God forbid. My heart is the salvation of the sons of Ishmael. And I know, because I know the words of the prophets, that many of the Jews who do not accept Christ will die in the time of Jacob's trouble under the AC before Christ returns and when then after all Israel is saved, & I know that many of the enemies of Israel (& the Lord) in that day when He returns to execute vengeance on the enemies of Zion (& the Lord) will be slaughtered by the Lord Himself. So my cry is to preach the faithful Gospel to Jew & Gentile (Arabs & all Gentiles) faithfully now while it is called today that they may turn & be saved!
God Bless,

 2016/9/4 9:21

Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2219

 Re: jeffmarr

Didn't even have you in mind bro.

David Winter

 2016/9/4 9:37Profile


I did not have you in mind either, Jeff.

Just trying to raise awareness that there are millions of Christians that believe these things which are horrible when you think about it.

It gets worse but no time to post right now as I'm smoking a brisket for today's gathering.

I'm glad we are all in agreement, thus far.

 2016/9/4 9:45

Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936



This week, the nascent Sanhedrin, a group attempting to revive the ancient Jewish legal institution, reportedly selected an individual to serve as high priest if the political situation allowed Jews to access the Temple Mount for Yom Kippur.

The high priest would bring the sacrifices which would be offered in such a situation.

Rabbi Baruch Kahane declined the nomination to serve as “Kohen Gadol,” or high priest. Instead, Kahane has reportedly been nominated to serve in a different clerical role.

However, he also told Breaking Israel News preparations must be made so a Temple service can be performed if the political situation permits it.

“It is clear that we need to be prepared, to prepare the priests, to have everything ready,” he was quoted as saying.

Other preparations are also being made. The Temple Institute in Jerusalem, a group dedicated to physically constructing the Third Temple, used crowd funding to raise over $100,000 to create architectural plans for building the Third Temple. The same organization also reconstructed the Altar of the Lord. There are even attempts to breed the special red heifers suitable for ritual use.

Mark Biltz, the author of “God’s Day Timer” and a Christian pastor passionate about connecting believers with the Jewish roots of their religion, was enthusiastic about plans to rebuild the Temple.

“We are definitely living in Messianic times!” he exclaimed to WND. “We have been without a Temple for too long. This is the fulfillment of a prophecy in the book of Hosea.”

He quoted a verse which said in the Last Days the “children of Israel” would return and renew the sacrifices in the Temple.

Biltz said he believes this prophecy will be inaugurated soon. He called on the Israeli government to do what is necessary to make it happen.

“All that is really needed is an altar and the political will of the Israeli government to have a greater fear of heaven than of man,” he argued.

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Jonathan Cahn, subject of the smash documentary film “The Harbinger Man,” and author of the new book, “The Book of Mysteries,” says he finds the news “fascinating.”

“We know that according to biblical end-time prophecy, the Temple of Jerusalem must be rebuilt,” the messianic rabbi told WND. “The Temple requires a priesthood. A priesthood requires a high priest. Though the Sanhedrin and priesthood right now lacks official legal authority and the rebuilding of the Temple will require a very dramatic turn of events, the very fact that in 2016, there is talk and movement toward the appointing of a high priest over the future Temple is quite striking.”

Cahn also said it is remarkable that it is only now, through modern technology, can the Jewish people fulfill the laws and rebuild the ancient Temple priesthood according to the law.

NEW: Jonathan Cahn’s “Book of Mysteries” takes readers on a journey of divine revelation through ancient Scriptures, the laws of Creation, the deep of God’s Word, the hidden streams of history, the most important keys of spiritual truth, end-time mysteries and the secrets of life.

“Another piece of the puzzle involves modern DNA technology,” he explained. “Only the blood descendants of Aaron, the brother of Moses, can serve as priests in the Temple. It is only in the last few years, with the development of DNA analysis, that the descendants of Aaron can be identified. In an amazing development, scientists were able to identify ‘the priestly gene,’ a genetic code carried by the sons of Aaron that goes back about 3,000 years, just about the same time as lived Aaron, the first high priest of Israel.”

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Bill Cloud of Shoreshim Ministries, the author of “Esau Rising,” said it is fascinating “religious Jews in Israel are obviously anticipating the coming of Messiah.”

“Their readiness to reinstitute Temple Service is predicated upon their belief that the Messiah will soon be revealed,” he told WND. “Of course I believe He has already been revealed and will return in the not-to-distant future.”

However, Cloud sounded a note of caution about whether a Temple built in Jerusalem would actually qualify as the Third Temple.

“Revelation 11 strongly implies that another temple will be built in Jerusalem, however, I’m not convinced that this is the messianic Temple,” Cloud said. “I’m not convinced that this particular temple alluded to in Revelation 11 qualifies as ‘the Third Temple.’ I think there is a very good chance that this Temple referred to in Revelation 11 is simply man’s attempt to force the issue. As a matter of fact, based on things we read in Revelation 11 and in Daniel chapter 9, this attempt to rebuild might be squashed by the one the Bible calls ‘Antichrist.'”

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Carl Gallups, author of “Be Thou Prepared” and the upcoming “When the Lion Roars: Understanding the Implications of Ancient Prophecies for Our Time,” said Christians should not be distracted by details. Instead, he called on believers to focus on the core truth at the center of the debate. Regardless of who is appointed high priest, the details of construction or even if any of these projects are making progress, Gallups said the fact the discussion is happening at all is hugely important.

“The implications of the continual talk, planning, construction and even conspiracy theories coming out of Israel concerning the possible construction of a Third Temple in Jerusalem are monumental!” he exclaimed. “It is a fact that many orthodox Jews believe this event is necessary for their ‘messianic understanding’ to come to fruition. The very talk of such a thing has huge geopolitical implications as well. Many believe that Islam, Christianity, and Judaism would somehow have to either come together on the project – or go to war over the matter. Others believe that the Antichrist himself will somehow be involved in bringing at least Islam and Judaism and, perhaps, some brand of Christianity to a melding point with the construction of a Temple structure in the ‘Holy Place’ of Jerusalem – and the Temple Mount.

“All of the debates, discussions, plans and headlines are indicative of the profoundly prophetic times in which we are now living. If the ‘Temple Talk’ invokes increasing global discussions and awakening to the biblically prophetic nature of our times, I welcome it!”

Gallups said ultimately, what is to happen is foreordained – and he urged Christians to become rededicated to their faith. As he lays out in “When the Lion Roars,” the Florida pastor argues the end times are coming soon and the proof can be found in the unique events this generation has witnessed.

“In the end of it all – it’s all about the return of Jesus Christ,” he said. “He came the first time, according to the prophecies, and those same prophecies declare He is coming again. Not only that, the prophecies are clear that He would return in the days shortly after Israel returned to the land, Jerusalem was in control of that returned Israel, and the Ezekiel 38 nations began their alignment against Israel. Those days are here, and we are the first historical generation to see it happen – Temple or no Temple.”


 2016/9/4 9:50Profile

Joined: 2006/9/16
Posts: 2219

 Re: Other monumental deceptions

I agree with you regarding Hagee etc. Yet there are millions and millions of Christians who do not hold to his views. This should be remembered also.

Regarding the mosques, when the Jews reclaimed the old city of Jerusalem in 1967 they immediately opened up the Wailing Wall to people of all faiths and took measures to ensure Muslims could come to the Wailing Wall. They are still doing this today. Jordan had previously been in control of the Wailing Wall and had forbidden access to it by Jewish people and had vandalized many Jewish shrines. They had taken Jewish headstones from the Jewish cemeteries and made latrines for their soldiers out of them. These mosques of the Islamic religion were constructed by a religion that denies the divinity of Christ and openly states in their book that Christ was not really crucifed. It cannot be denied eliminating Jews is a virtue in this religion. No non Mulsim or Jews are allowed to come near these mosques yet the popular notion is that Israel is causing all the problems. Go figure.

/What business does a Christian have in supporting financially to rebuild a temple where sacrifices will be re-instituted, let alone start a war?

These days are full of deception. Be very careful my brothers and sisters./

Islam has declared perpetual war against Israel and is dedicated to not only the elimination of Israel but of the Jewish people. Read the Hamas charter if you would. Why do we pay attention to rats int the cellar when there are elephants in the attic?

A equally DANGEROUS DECEPTION in my mind would be that modern Israel is nothing more than a secular nation with no prohetic destiny ahead for them. Christ came to Israel and ascended from it and promised to return to it yet now we have a major branch of eschatological theology advocating that Israel is non-persona in the redemptive plan and totally irrelevant to any future events. This view is manmy times accompanied by a mocking disdain for modern Israel. It's not worship of Israel but a diligent prophetic investigation that leads one to conclude Israel will be in the epi-center of events at the end of the age.

Chrst is destined to return to the nation He ascended from. To say this still renders this nation as irrelevant can be nothing but a deception!

Be careful my brothers and sister. Yes, indeed!

David Winter

 2016/9/4 9:58Profile

Joined: 2012/5/13
Posts: 2936


RE: /// A equally DANGEROUS DECEPTION in my mind would be that modern Israel is nothing more than a secular nation with no prohetic destiny ahead for them. Christ came to Israel and ascended from it and promised to return to it yet now we have a major branch of eschatological theology advocating that Israel is non-persona in the redemptive plan and totally irrelevant to any future events. This view is manmy times accompanied by a mocking disdain for modern Israel. It's not worship of Israel but a diligent prophetic investigation that leads one to conclude Israel will be smack dab in the middle of events at the end of the age.///

Hi Docs,
Could you please provide some historical writings from the first 1500 years of church history preferably from ante nicene, that agrees with your interputation of Scripture. (((concerning Israel having a prohetic destiny ahead for them.)))
something more than an ambiguous quote from little heard of Ishodad of Merv of 850


My concern is that Israel is fixing to declare someone as their messiah , and what will christians do if they do.

edit add : for clarity of question (((concerning Israel having a prohetic destiny ahead for them.)))

 2016/9/4 10:21Profile


And that's fine, docs. I don't know anyone here that mocks the nation state of Israel. You are equating the belief that today's nation state of Israel plays no role in endtime events as mocking and that is not right. They have every right to defend themselves. Christians do not have to believe in the complete literalism of C.I. Scofield and J.N. Darby. Their views are quite recent, you know.

On the other hand, there is clear mocking of the scriptures going on by many Christians reinterpreting them to mean something else. Take God’s Promises to Abraham for instance.

In Genesis 12, 15 and 17 God promises the Holy Land to Abraham and his descendents. To Christian Zionists (Hagee and his followers) this promise of land inheritance was permanent and unconditional. And it is as true in Biblical times as it is today. This means that for Christian Zionists, the covenant of Abraham continues to be in play today . And as Christians this forces them to have what we call a “two covenant” theology: one covenant for the Jews and one for Christians operates in the church. In a word, the work of Christ does not replace or supplant the Jewish covenant.

But something decisive happened in Christ. His covenant affected not simply the covenant of Moses – making a new and timeless form of salvation – but it also affected every Jewish covenant, including Abraham’s covenant. Christ fulfills the expectations of Jewish covenant life and renews the people of God rooted in the OT and Judaism. Thus Jesus is a new temple, the new Israel, there are 12 tribes/apostles, etc., etc.

When it comes to the land promises to Abraham – a crux for dispensationalists – We should look at Galatians 3:16. The Apostle Paul wrote: “Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say ‘And to his offsprings,’ referring to many; but referring to one, ‘And to his offspring,’ which is Christ.” Paul argues from the singular noun in Genesis to show that the promises to Abraham – and this means land – point to Christ! Paul, who wrote Roman 9-11, is arguing this, not me.

Christ is the focus of the promise of land! The promises to Abraham have been realized in Christ – he holds everything Judaism desired – and knowing him gains access to such promises. In John 15 Christ does the same. This is the great vine and branches sermon Jesus told in the upper room. The Old Testament image of Israel is that of a vineyard filled with many vines rooted in the soil of the Holy Land. You can see this outlined beautifully in Isaiah 5. But Jesus upends this. We see a vineyard again but now we learn that there is one vine – Christ – and the only question turns not on gaining access to the land but being attached to Him, gaining access to Christ.

To think in a Christian way about "land and promise" is to think differently than Judaism. In short, the NT changes the spiritual geography of God’s people. The Kingdom of God is tied neither to an ethnicity nor to a place. And because the early Christians understood this, they carried their missionary efforts to the entire world. At a time when Jews were debating the meaning of Holy Land, Jesus’ prescription was quite remarkable: “the meek will inherit the land” (Mt 5:5). Not the aggressor or the conqueror.

That is why many Christians are not at all convinced that the promises to Abraham much less Moses are still theologically significant today. The work of Christ is definitive. There is one covenant. And it is with Christ. That is why we cringe when we hear John Hagee cite the Old Testament again and again. I am eager to hear him open his New Testament for us and think Christianly.

Does the support of Israel by John Hagee and CUFI, undermine the efforts to support peace in Israel? They openly support the removal of the Mosque of Omar and Al-Aqsa mosque. That is certainly not going to win any friends or promote peace.

A meeting took place in Washington on July 17, 2007, It was called “A Night to Honor Israel” and was hosted by Christians United for Israel [CUFI]. The aim of the evening was purely political. It’s organizers want to influence American foreign policy to support any Israeli security or land issue. What constantly amazes me is that the audience was entirely religious. Organized by Rev. John Hagee, CUFI works to rouse the evangelical Christians of America – by their count, 50 million. And with this platform, they hope to show that Christians have a spiritual obligation to stand with Israel fully. That night in his keynote address, Hagee said, “When 50 million evangelical Bible-believing Christians unite with five million American Jews standing together on behalf of Israel, it is a match made in heaven.”

Hagee continued, “Let us shout it from the housetops that a new day has
been born in America. The sleeping giant of Christian Zionism has awakened. If a line has to be drawn, draw the line around Christians and Jews. We are united. We are indivisible. AND TOGETHER WE CAN RESHAPE HISTORY”

Notice, that Hagee labels himself and his organization, "Christian Zionist". That label did not come from me.

Also, note that he said, "TOGETHER WE CAN RESHAPE HISTORY". Very important to keep that in mind.

But this is where Hagee frightens more than he inspires. Not only has his theological commitments given him Biblically defended views on Israel, but now his eschatology has led him to call for America to strike out militarily against Iran. Using the language of the Book of Revelation, Hagee looked to Iran as the incarnation of evil. “The head of the beast of radical Islam in the Middle East is Iran and its fanatical president Ahmadinejad. Ladies and gentlemen, we are reliving history. It is 1938 all over again. Iran is Germany. Ahmadinejad is Hitler. And Ahmadinejad, just like Hitler, is talking about killing the Jews.”

The answer to this problem is written in the Biblical playbook which he will interpret for us. The answer is to launch a war that will end all war since it will bring the end of human history. Listen again, “… we want you to recognize that Iran is a clear and present danger to the United
States of America and Israel. … it's time for our country to consider a military preemptive strike against Iran if they will not yield to diplomacy. And if they continue the pursuit of nuclear weapons we must not allow them to manipulate the economy of the world because they have a
nuclear weapon.”

So there we have it. Rev. John Hagee, a spokesperson for Jesus Christ, calling for an American military strike against Iran based on what the Bible teaches. During his conference he then commissioned his 4500 delegates to go to Capitol Hill as lobbyists. I am not the only one who is alarmed. A host of Jewish leaders, such as Rabbi Laurie Zimmerman and Rabbi Michael Lerner, have spoken out against this “wedding made in heaven.”

Rabbi Zimmerman wrote in response:
Other rabbis, including myself, generally support building bridges with other communities. Yet we recognize that there are some groups with whom we should not align ourselves or support in any way. If creating a sustainable peace in the Middle East is important to us, then we cannot support an organization that advocates attacking Iran and launching the region into further chaos. As Pastor John Hagee, stated, “The United States must join Israel in a pre-emptive military strike against Iran to fulfill God's plan
for both Israel and the West... a biblically prophesied end-time confrontation with Iran, which will lead to the Rapture, Tribulation [...]and Second Coming of Christ” (CUFI’s Washington, DC inaugural event, July 19, 2006).

Excerpts from Gary Burge.

No one has really answered proudpapa's question:

Hi Docs,
Could you please provide some historical writings from the first 1500 years of church history preferably from ante nicene, that agrees with your interputation of Scripture. (((concerning Israel having a prohetic destiny ahead for them.))) something more than an ambiguous quote from little heard of Ishodad of Merv of 850

Ok, gotta go. Will chat later in the day.

 2016/9/4 10:59

Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 643


Ezekiel's temple is thus described, but who is authorized to build that temple.

Zechariah 6:11-13

11 Then take silver and gold and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest,

12 and speak unto him, saying, ‘Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, “Behold the Man whose name is The Branch! And He shall grow up out of His place, and He shall build the temple of the Lord.

13 Even He shall build the temple of the Lord; and He shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon His throne. And He shall be a priest upon His throne; and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.”

If at all the temple pertained to by ezekiel and zechariah is one and the same.

 2016/9/4 11:06Profile

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