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 Re:

Quote:
by Lysa on 2016/8/21 15:01:
I like you forrests and it is not my intention to start a war with you or anyone else but what I meant exactly is that the title of this thread is "New Ben Hur Movie" not the new age or Roma Downey, or roman catholics, etc.

It's seems that only one person has actually sat in a movie theater and watched Ben Hur and has an actual opinion of the movie.



We should try harder to stay on topic. Too often, because of a personal bias, some will revert to attacking the messenger rather than deal with the topic at hand hoping by doing that they are successful in discrediting the topic.

 2016/8/22 8:39
forrests
Member



Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: Amen, Julius.

I find that examining the beliefs and theology of the makers of a movie are imminently "on topic" when discussing a move.

Quote:
Too often, because of a personal bias, some will revert to attacking the messenger rather than deal with the topic at hand hoping by doing that they are successful in discrediting the topic.



Do you mean like God does through His word and His prophets and apostles?

"Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation!...For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things."
~ Phillipians 3:2, 18-19

For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God[fn] and our Lord Jesus Christ....Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries....But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves....Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever...These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage....These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit."
~ Jude (Various verses)

I am sure you are aware that I could go on and on and on…


_________________
~ Forrest

 2016/8/22 10:00Profile
dolfan
Member



Joined: 2011/8/23
Posts: 1727
Tennessee, but my home's in Alabama

 Re:

TMK, I'm sort of with you on the Passion. I own it and don't know that I'll ever watch it again. I watched in the theater with my brother (who is not a Christian) with me. He was as nervous as a housecat in a room full of rocking chairs. He kept wiping at his mouth. He fidgeted. He wouldn't say much about it later. Whether it was conviction or horror, I cannot say for sure but it seemed like the former to me. More than anything I saw in the movie, as memorable as it was, I was focused more on his reactions.

I think the Passion was overall a good movie, tried to be true to what likely happened on Calvary. The licenses it took with some things weren't helpful, IMO. But, as far as "Christian movies" go, I think it may be the reigning champion in terms of communicating the crux of the gospel as much as any film can.

As I sit here, though, I can't honestly say I plan to ever see it again.


_________________
Tim

 2016/8/22 11:56Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Hi Forrest-

Just so I understand where you are coming from, would you ever read a book- particularly a classic- where the author is not an evangelical Christian?

How about a news article by a non Christian. Or a sporting event where the announcers and all the players are not Christians? Or music that is not written or performed by Christians?

It is not my intention to pick on you in any way. It will just help to clarify what you are saying.

No one here is stating that Christians should watch filthy movies or read filthy books. The issue is those movies and books that are not filthy but are not produced by Christians.


_________________
Todd

 2016/8/22 12:00Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 2265


 Re:... that he understands and knows Me





Jesus replied:"'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'

Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are honest, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report; if there is any virtue, and if there is any praise, think on these things.

 2016/8/22 12:23Profile
forrests
Member



Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: TMK's Questions.

Quote:
by TMK on 2016/8/22 9:00:26

Hi Forrest-

Just so I understand where you are coming from, would you ever read a book- particularly a classic- where the author is not an evangelical Christian?

How about a news article by a non Christian. Or a sporting event where the announcers and all the players are not Christians? Or music that is not written or performed by Christians?

It is not my intention to pick on you in any way. It will just help to clarify what you are saying.

No one here is stating that Christians should watch filthy movies or read filthy books. The issue is those movies and books that are not filthy but are not produced by Christians.



I will attempt to honestly answer your questions, but first a little discerning distinctions if I may...

There is a difference between consuming things done by non-believers for a purpose - such as information from news outlets - and to consume their art and entertainment. One is for utility and the other for pleasure. The issue is taking pleasure in the vain amusements of the world - which often convey the mind and philosophy of it (either directly or indirectly). This is especially true in art and literature.

So the issue raised earlier with the internet...do I use it to serve a purpose that is aimed at the glory of God - or do I love the culture of it and take pleasure in that which God is opposed to (and hates)?

That is the difference. To use a thing the world makes (such as a car) is different than 'loving/befriending the world' by assuming it's desires, entertainment and practices (such as the culture of car restoration and collections of cars and obsessing over cars).

Or to read a news article or watch a non-fiction documentary that worldlings create in order to obtain knowledge (albeit while exercising discernment the whole time and weighing everything by the word of God) is different than consuming (and enjoying) a television show, movie, or other vain amusement that the world produces which promotes things God hates and denigrates things which He calls holy and pure and good.

When we wade into movies and series' that are some blend of entertainment and supposed gospel message or biblical history (such as "A.D., the Bible Continues" or "Ben-Hur") it gets even more dangerous and not less: as these movies (really most of the worlds entertainment - if not all of it) are really propaganda and intended to instruct and teach a philosophy/mythology/doctrine/worldview of some sort...and the beliefs and theology of the producers of such media need to be scrutinized for this reason.

They (the purveyors of the entertainment media) are very cognizant of the usefulness of media as a propaganda tool. The very fact that many say "it's only entertainment" is the issue. We "let our guard down" and let a lot of things into our hearts and minds through the back door without ever requiring them to pass the bar of our discernment and reason first.

We swallow a lot of "teaching" that we would otherwise reject because we don't believe that we are being instructed. It bypasses our logic and reason and is sown into our hearts under the guise of entertainment...

Now with all of that in mind, let me try to answer your questions:

Quote:
...would you ever read a book- particularly a classic- where the author is not an evangelical Christian?



Would I ever? Perhaps; but not for my enjoyment and amusement and it's not high on my priorities. The only foreseeable reason would be to preview it if the public schools were requiring one of my step-daughters to read it...so my wife and I could know how to handle it.

And when you say "non-evangelical" I am thinking unbelieving. If it were a Roman Catholic, a mystic of some sort, a Gnostic, or some other occultist and the subject matter were (either directly or indirectly through allegory, etc.) religion/philosophy, etc., then I would be much less likely to pick it up at all (except for research purposes, not for amusement or personal enlightenment).

Quote:
How about a news article by a non Christian.



I think I answered this before, but I will touch on it again. The answer is yes, I do read news articles by unbelievers, of course I do. But I do not find this a fair comparison to consuming a two hour "play" as amusement/entertainment. The former is for information and the latter is for amusement. The former will be with consumed for a few minutes and using all biblical discernment; the latter for hours and likely bypassing scrutiny (as it is "just a movie" and "fiction" anyhow).

It is the same as the difference between owning a car and collecting them, or wearing clothes or submersing oneself in fashion. The same can be said about the next question.

Quote:
Or a sporting event where the announcers and all the players are not Christians?



Short answer: I have no intention to ever attend a sporting event - nor to have my sons in sports on an advanced level. Perhaps a bit as a boy for fun, but when he becomes a young man I will expect him to 'put away childish things' and pursue love, righteousness, peace, gentleness, godliness, patience, and holiness... (Rom 9:30; Rom 14:19; 1Co 14:1; 1Th 5:15; 1Ti 6:11; 2Ti 2:22; Heb 12:14)

I do not watch sports on TV or in person, and neither does my family.

Quote:
Or music that is not written or performed by Christians?



No. I do not take pleasure in worldly music (this includes contemporary "Christian" music) - and why would I? Not only would this would be "friendship with the world" in my estimation, but "what fellowship has light with darkness"? What does this world (system) have to offer that I should take pleasure in?

I add "system" there parenthetically because I can imagine someone asking about food prepared and served by unbelievers at a restaurant owned by ungodly people..."do you take pleasure in a burger made by unbelievers?"...so I add "system" to help clarify what "world" refers to. It doesn't mean everything made by unregenerate people, but things inspired by an anti-christ world and aimed at advancing it's agenda (which is partially accomplished by distraction and turning the affections and loyalty of many from Christ to it, even through entertainment and the like).

This world is at open war against God and His Anointed and it loves what God hates and hates what He loves. By nature it is the antithesis of Christ and all that He wills. This is why friendship with it is considered enmity with God.

Quote:
The issue is those movies and books that are not filthy but are not produced by Christians.



I strongly disagree with the above statement and I believe I can prove from the word of God that God also disagrees with it. Any movie that flows from the hearts and minds of heretics and Christ-haters (and those sympathetic of and friendly with the Christ-hating world system), and assumes to represent the word and truth and will of God -can only be seen as filthy and defiled and toxic and potentially fatal.

Does this help you to understand my position a bit more?

I know I will likely be criticized and mocked (in a "Christian" way) or ignored and thought of as fanatic or legalistic or immature or harsh or whatever, but as Leonard Ravenhill once said - "I don't think Jesus is going to tell me I took the gospel too seriously when I stand before Him."

Say what you will (or think it, for those of you who would never dare to say it) - I belong to Jesus. I am not my own - I was bought with a price, and I seek to glorify God with my body. And me and my house will serve the LORD - with all of our heart, and all of our mind and all of our strength.

If my children grow up and choose to apostatize to the other side and join up with the enemy later on in life (God forbid); as I am sure some believe I am provoking them to do by exasperating them or something; that is a decision they will make on their own, but at least I will have done all I can do to show them clearly who the enemy is and they will make an informed decision and my hands will be free from even their blood.

http://www.hymntime.com/tch/htm/i/h/a/ihavedef.htm


_________________
~ Forrest

 2016/8/22 15:30Profile
TMK
Member



Joined: 2012/2/8
Posts: 6650
NC, USA

 Re:

Thanks Forrest for answering and I do appreciate your candor.

I at least partially agree on most of your points.

My main disagreement is that I think a well rounded person must be somewhat educated about the way the world works. Jesus said to be wise as serpents yet innocent as doves.

When I read a book by Charles Dickens or Ernest Hemingway I do not do so as a religious exercise. I read it to see how others, even non Christians (in hemingways case, anyway) view the world. There are many things I have never nor will ever experience because I am a Christian. But millions of other people HAVE experienced them.

For example, I have never experienced the horrors of war. But I think it is important to know what those horrors are. Books, and of course movies, like Saving Private Ryan, can open that experience up to me.

So I think our basic disagreement is that you place less emphasis on the importance of a wider avenue of learning about the human experience than I do- and that's okay. I certainly have read through the Bible many times and have read and listened extensively to Christian books, sermons and teachings.

But I cannot learn about being on the sea from those- I must look to Moby Dick. And I cannot learn about a war experience from those, I must look to For Whom the Bell Tolls or All Quiet on the Western Front.

A mature Christian, and I do stress mature, should be able to read a classic novel without being corrupted.

I am not saying you are not mature- please don't misunderstand me. You have made a choice about avoiding certain forms of entertainment and no one has the right to talk you out of your convictions.

But other Christians allow for certain forms of "entertainment" and it is not necessarily a sin for them to do so.


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Todd

 2016/8/22 16:01Profile
forrests
Member



Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re: Wise as serpents

Quote:
My main disagreement is that I think a well rounded person must be somewhat educated about the way the world works. Jesus said to be wise as serpents yet innocent as doves.



I agree that it wisdom is commanded - but I find that most of what I truly understand about fallen humanity (the way the world works) I learned from Christ revealing and correcting it in me. I know how the carnal mind works (to some degree) because I have waged war with it in myself. I know godlessness because I once was and I encounter many who still are on a daily basis. I understand the wickedness of man, because God shows me the wickedness of my own heart (in spite of grace and light from Him)...

I started reading Plato a couple years back, "Republic", to do just what you say...and I didn't find it nearly as beneficial and instrumental to that end as the works of T. Austin-Sparks or William Gurnall or John Wesley or the Ante-Nicean "fathers" or (of course) the Bible as illuminated by the Spirit of God... As I see Him more clearly, I see myself and this world more clearly (in His light/ in light of Him).

Isaiah 53:2-7 (as far as I have gotten in memorizing Isaiah 53 lately) has revealed a lot about me and mankind in general by showing me Christ in a more intimate and in-depth way...

I am not saying that reading "Moby Dick" is sin per se (I don't know what is in it, it may be) - but I am saying that consuming entertainment that supposedly has a "gospel" theme that is created by heretics and Christ-haters and unregenerate rebels against God is very dangerous and foolish (in my eyes).

Add to that the glowing praise it has received from outright heretics (Rick Warren and Joel Osteen, to name a couple; one who is deep into new-age/NWO thinking and the other...I don't even know where to begin), also raises a HUGE RED FLAG in my mind.

I just caution the brethren against allowing "liberty" to become a stumbling stone (to yourself or others) by 'giving place to the devil' to try to skew how you view God, Jesus, sin, the world, holiness, purity, truth, etc...all under the guise of "getting well-rounded" - when in truth they just want to consume the entertainment and since Hollywood now panders to this largely un-tapped market that would otherwise never give it a dollar if it didn't make "Christian" movies that are "okay to watch because they are 'Christian'" (similar to music)...

Let us beware lest our own carnal minds would gain the advantage over us by convincing us that sin is not sin and God doesn't really mean what He says and He isn't that serious...and we can recline and rest and let our hair down and stop being so cautious...a little worldly entertainment won't hurt (Hey, it's Christian!)...

We are in a battlefield until Christ calls us home or returns and puts an end to the war...let us not forget that.

"No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier."
~ 2 Timothy 2:4


_________________
~ Forrest

 2016/8/22 16:48Profile
PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
A mature Christian, and I do stress mature, should be able to read a classic novel without being corrupted.



Brethren, this is a true statement. Nothing coming in from the outer world has power to defile the inner reality we have in Christ, but instead we understand that true defilement comes from the inside of the heart and works its way outward from an already-corrupted source. This is why Paul could eat meat sacrificed to demons with a clear conscience and give thanks to God for the meal. However, even though to the pure all things are pure, we know that some do not yet have this liberty. For those brethren who are the weaker, the stronger must likewise become weak in their company as to not stumble them. Otherwise, the boast of their liberty will actually nullify the grace they had and transform the actions of their freedom into sin. Because the motive is now coming from a corrupted source.


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Paul Frederick West

 2016/8/22 16:59Profile
forrests
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Joined: 2016/3/11
Posts: 301


 Re:

Quote:
Nothing coming in from the outer world has power to defile the inner reality we have in Christ, but instead we understand that true defilement comes from the inside of the heart and works its way outward from an already-corrupted source.



I agree. And disagree. Physical things don't corrupt. This is true. But deception and error does:

"For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!
~ 2 Corinthians 11:2-4

"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?"
~ Galatians 3:1

Movies, in and of themselves, don't corrupt you, sure; but there is a corrupting of the mind that can take place through deception and this can corrupt and lead astray. Scripture is clear on this.

And there seems to be a point that Paul foresees that liberty can become a stumbling block to the strong as well as the weak, as he seems to circle back to the issue of idolatry and warns the Corinthians (seemingly the strong ones with knowledge and liberty) about idolatry and having fellowship with demons. It seems to me that he foresaw that those who had liberty to eat the meat sacrificed to idols (knowing an idol is nothing) may become sympathetic to other practices of the idol worship and eventually fall into idolatry (/have fellowship with demons) as the result:

"Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

"Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. I speak as to wise men; judge for yourselves what I say. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.

"Observe Israel after the flesh: Are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?"
~ 1 Corinthians 10:12-22

There is a danger in error and deception which comes from without (and appeals to something already within) and there is ever the caution to those 'who think they stand' (in maturity and knowledge) that they can too fall into sin in spite of it...


_________________
~ Forrest

 2016/8/22 17:42Profile





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